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welcome to skeptic Oh where we explore

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controversial science and spirituality

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with leading researchers thinkers and

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their critics

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I'm your host Alex Karras and today we

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welcome Anthony peek back to skeptic oh

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to talk about his new and quite amazing

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book the hidden universe an

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investigation into non-human

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intelligences a book that is very much

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about these extended consciousness

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realms that we talk so much about on

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this show Anthony as many of you know is

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not just a very accomplished author and

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speaker but as someone who truly in

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every way that I can tell seems to be a

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researcher seeker that is someone who

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you get the feeling that is really

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trying to get somewhere with this stuff

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and isn't just writing books which are

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very entertaining and bring us all along

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on his journey but that this is really a

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path of discovery for Anthony and I

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really appreciate that his latest book

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the hidden universe is no exception it's

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packed

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not just with amazing accounts and

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stories that you're gonna be quite

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surprised that you've never heard about

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before but it's also packed with a lot

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of cutting-edge science that Anthony

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believes backs up his theories now one

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other thing I should mention and that is

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that Tony Peak is not someone who's

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afraid to stick his neck out there

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regarding his theories I kind of like

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that really because if you really listen

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to what he's saying

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I think what he's saying is not that he

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has all the answers but more that it

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unless somebody sticks a stake into the

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ground and says hey it's not just about

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stories here's what I think this stuff

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leads to unless somebody does that we

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can't really pull it apart so we all

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realize that we're probably wrong about

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all this stuff that the greatest minds

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have thought about since as long as

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there's been a human

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being on this planet but I do appreciate

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that he's willing to stick his neck out

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there and say hey here's how I think it

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all fits together so Anthony it's great

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to have you back thanks so much for

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joining me great city to be casting to

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you again Alex I've been looking forward

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to this it's really really good and

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thanks for a wonderful introduction I

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know that's a really hard act to follow

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I have to say thank you for it

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why do you totally deserve it I mean so

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I tell you what let's dive into the book

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I love this quote that really kind of

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resonates with something we all know to

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be true but we can forget until a book

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like this comes along and reminds us and

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that is throughout recorded history the

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belief that humanity shares this planet

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with the variety of other sentient

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beings has been persistent I mean if you

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want to start from there you want to

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start from anywhere you like tell us

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about the book the hidden universe yeah

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I know that that is that's quite correct

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and that's being my my overall reason

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for writing this book and it's a book I

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think has been inside me since the mid

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1960s it's it's the book I thought

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probably always wanted to write because

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in the mid 1960s I came down with about

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of double pneumonia and during that

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period I had a series of very profound

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hallucinations going through the the

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crisis of pneumonia and at that time

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even at my 12 year old mind I was quite

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fascinated by the nature of the

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hallucinations I was seeing there were

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these things external to me were these

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things internally generated well were

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they a mixture of both and this very

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much has been something that is

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intrigued me all through my writing

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career really because time and time

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again I come across people who encounter

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enters in differing circumstances in OBE

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state in lucid dreaming states people

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who encounter entities during Close

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Encounters of the Third Kind and include

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the developing Close Encounters of the

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fifth at the moment so though there

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seems to be an awful lot of information

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out there but what nobody's I think has

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tried to do well it's not true I mean

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I'm not originally something Jackie

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tries to do it many

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go and various other writers over the

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years have tried to draw a link through

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history as to what these entity be and

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this is what I try to do now

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I very much I mean you call my ideas a

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theory I say or hypotheses I'd probably

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say it's educated speculation because a

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lot of these things we can never

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actually know and we can never really

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test although I'm working with people

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trying to test these things but the

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basis basis of the book is just if

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people have extraordinary experiences

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and encounter entities the seem to

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having an existence of that can we build

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up a neurological model can we build up

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a psychological model and can we build

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up from phonological model to actually

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explain what things are and that's what

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I attempt to do in the book tell us more

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though because that's that's a good

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starting point but the book really jumps

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in with both feet

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about the entirety of this extended

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realm that does seem to crop up all over

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the place so whether it's magic and

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spirits and shamans like you said or

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whether it's after afterlife experiences

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and your death experiences or whether

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it's the et experiences I mean you do

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kind of take us through this history in

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order to get us to the point of some of

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the breakthrough science that you think

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is influencing you the most right now so

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where do you want to start with that I

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think the magic and spirits and shamans

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thing is something that's really

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interesting because it grabs a lot of

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people's attention right now there's a

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lot of people really interested in magic

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right now a lot of people really

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interested in the occult right now and I

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gotta say I think that we haven't quite

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thought that through all the way

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particularly if we mash it into

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simulation theory and afterlife

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near-death stuff I mean there's just so

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many things to pull apart here Tony I

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hardly know where to begin so I'm kind

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of okay I'm happy to do that the the

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first thing I'd like to make the point

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is that kind of the starting point the

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starting price of the book involves an

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experience and a mother had when she was

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starting to develop outside

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and one day she phones me up and she

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said she experienced a very strange

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incident on her way onto the local

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village that we used to live in

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deliverable and she said that she was

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walking with my aunt my add stopper to

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tie her shoelace and when my aunt was

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tying her shoelace my mother looked up

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and said what she described to seeing a

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smoke ring hung hovering over a local

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local factory she then said the smoke

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ring started to revolve and then shot

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off towards North Wales and she asked me

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what she's seen and I said well you know

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I don't really know mum you know she's

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not into UFO she never has me it's not

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the kind of thing she's ever been

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interested in and she was a lady in her

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late 80s then and I said what wouldn't

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worry about it and she didn't for about

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two or three days and then one morning

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two three days later she phones me up in

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stains of absolute terror now she's

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woken up in the middle of the night in a

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state of sleep paralysis you know she

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she said she couldn't move him she

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didn't move properly but she was looking

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towards the door of her bedroom now she

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lives alone she's a winner now what is

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important here important caveat is that

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she'd lost her eye with malignant

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melanoma many years before and her other

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eye she was developing various problems

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so she was partially sighted which is

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important as I move on with this she

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said she looked towards the bedroom door

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niche the bedroom door was open and then

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she's all her she's find it he's

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spitting Lee fingers from around the

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edge of the bedroom door and this

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creature-- pop its head around the door

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she described it and the description is

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uncanny she said a large black eyes but

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insect she had two holes for her nose

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and a slit for a mouth and he looked at

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her and dodged back as if you know it

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had seen her she wakes up and she said

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Tony what did I see and I said well it's

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intriguing I really don't know long

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because I didn't want to worry her but

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clearly in a state of hypnagogic or

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hitting upon this thing and anaesthetic

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sleep paralysis her dolls perception and

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broken down to such an extent that she

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was receiving something that ordinarily

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under ordinary seek circumstances

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wouldn't experienced but was her

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description of it and of course there

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was immediate money of the book cover of

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the witness dream about communion

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because it was it was a classic pray it

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was an archetypal

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now Ivan started to research into this

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no words were but when I started to

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really resist it I discovered some quite

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interesting facts like for example in

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2017 in northern India there was a cave

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could only 30 villages in northern India

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this hadn't been for 10,000 years

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they carbon dated various things to note

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this was the case and the creatures that

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are depicted in this cave other creature

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that my mother saw then you go on about

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you know graham hancock and grant in his

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book Sabet to the natural and then this

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he describes his own experiences in the

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junction shelter in the dragon mountain

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since Africa here again we have very

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similar creatures that are actually

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drawn on the cave wall now what

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intrigues me here is that there's an

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elderly lady in in the UK there are

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people in India and there are people in

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southern Africa and then again as Graham

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Hancock says himself you know you look

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at the last our caves and you look at

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peshwa where else these are these

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entities seem to be drawn everywhere now

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the counter-argument to this is oh well

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you know there they were more primitive

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than we were these people they didn't

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know how to draw properly or they were

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doing idealizations now the argument

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here doesn't stand up for me because

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these these ancestors are these

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ancestors of ours their brains were

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exactly the same size as ours clearly

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they knew how to depict bison and and

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other animals so clearly whatever they

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were doing it was not just an

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abstraction it was something more so the

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question for me was what are these

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entities and what are these beings and

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if you start to count forward you find

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certain themes take place it seems to

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involve darkness it seems to involve

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people in caves or in areas where

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darkness is around I argue this is

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because in darkness the pineal gland

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generates melatonin and I argue that

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there is a good case to be made that the

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pineal gland actually synthesizes

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endogenous meltonian into another

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00:10:58,960 --> 00:10:57,020
substance and that other substance Ida

275
00:11:01,060 --> 00:10:58,970
ladies I'm after something I believe

276
00:11:03,490 --> 00:11:01,070
it's pause here for just a second to

277
00:11:05,680 --> 00:11:03,500
bring people up to date on what you're

278
00:11:05,990 --> 00:11:05,690
saying because I mean there's already 10

279
00:11:07,610 --> 00:11:06,000
G

280
00:11:09,290 --> 00:11:07,620
being off points from what you talked

281
00:11:11,840 --> 00:11:09,300
about it will get to as many as we can

282
00:11:14,480 --> 00:11:11,850
but this is really interesting science

283
00:11:17,570 --> 00:11:14,490
that you bring out in this book and you

284
00:11:20,030 --> 00:11:17,580
connect it in some very very powerful

285
00:11:22,670 --> 00:11:20,040
ways I don't totally agree with all of

286
00:11:25,010 --> 00:11:22,680
it but I'm taken aback and really have

287
00:11:26,600 --> 00:11:25,020
to pause with some of it so here's the

288
00:11:28,450 --> 00:11:26,610
background I want to lay out for people

289
00:11:31,490 --> 00:11:28,460
and correct me if any of this is wrong

290
00:11:34,850 --> 00:11:31,500
DMT everyone's heard of DMT Rick

291
00:11:36,950 --> 00:11:34,860
Strassman spirit molecule shamans you

292
00:11:38,660 --> 00:11:36,960
know figure out how to do it in the

293
00:11:40,730 --> 00:11:38,670
jungle and then you can have ayahuasca

294
00:11:45,560 --> 00:11:40,740
trips and all the rest of this but the

295
00:11:49,070 --> 00:11:45,570
mystery has been twofold one is that the

296
00:11:51,140 --> 00:11:49,080
fact that we have DMT trips suggest that

297
00:11:54,560 --> 00:11:51,150
we have neurotransmitters in our brain

298
00:11:57,170 --> 00:11:54,570
that can process it which suggest that

299
00:11:59,060 --> 00:11:57,180
we have the ability to create it in our

300
00:12:02,450 --> 00:11:59,070
bodies otherwise we wouldn't have that

301
00:12:05,870 --> 00:12:02,460
ability but the mystery has been we

302
00:12:08,120 --> 00:12:05,880
don't see DMT in human being so we don't

303
00:12:11,900 --> 00:12:08,130
see that mammals are able to create that

304
00:12:14,540 --> 00:12:11,910
so with that as the mystery fill us in

305
00:12:16,400 --> 00:12:14,550
on what the latest science is telling

306
00:12:19,940 --> 00:12:16,410
you about how that mystery is solved

307
00:12:22,670 --> 00:12:19,950
yeah well DMT is found in the human body

308
00:12:24,380 --> 00:12:22,680
DMT is in liver it's in the stomach it's

309
00:12:26,570 --> 00:12:24,390
in the blood it's in the spine of

310
00:12:29,210 --> 00:12:26,580
cerebral fluid and everywhere else the

311
00:12:32,570 --> 00:12:29,220
question is why is it there but more

312
00:12:33,940 --> 00:12:32,580
interestingly is why how does it get

313
00:12:36,350 --> 00:12:33,950
there right because they say yeah

314
00:12:38,450 --> 00:12:36,360
participates really quickly I mean it's

315
00:12:39,800 --> 00:12:38,460
in that it's processed really so I'm

316
00:12:41,450 --> 00:12:39,810
sorry I missed it

317
00:12:42,980 --> 00:12:41,460
it's alright and it does and that's the

318
00:12:44,270 --> 00:12:42,990
problem that up until recent years

319
00:12:47,090 --> 00:12:44,280
there's been the argument you know

320
00:12:49,640 --> 00:12:47,100
you've never found DMT in the brain

321
00:12:51,200 --> 00:12:49,650
although there are in the brain the

322
00:12:52,970 --> 00:12:51,210
things called a take the trace a mean

323
00:12:55,280 --> 00:12:52,980
associated receptors and these are

324
00:12:57,290 --> 00:12:55,290
receptors within the neurons and a

325
00:12:59,120 --> 00:12:57,300
receptor site is rather like a key in a

326
00:13:00,710 --> 00:12:59,130
lock and it's designed to work with

327
00:13:03,500 --> 00:13:00,720
particular neurotransmitters in the

328
00:13:05,720 --> 00:13:03,510
brain you know dopamine serotonin glue

329
00:13:07,430 --> 00:13:05,730
to make these kind of things but these

330
00:13:08,660 --> 00:13:07,440
particular case I mean associated

331
00:13:10,970 --> 00:13:08,670
receptor sites were a great mystery

332
00:13:12,140 --> 00:13:10,980
because they knew ologists and the

333
00:13:12,800 --> 00:13:12,150
neurons didn't really understand what

334
00:13:14,120 --> 00:13:12,810
were there for

335
00:13:15,800 --> 00:13:14,130
well then there was this theory made

336
00:13:18,050 --> 00:13:15,810
that actually they work with the EMT

337
00:13:19,639 --> 00:13:18,060
they work with diet or klippstein so

338
00:13:21,379 --> 00:13:19,649
this receptor site

339
00:13:23,449 --> 00:13:21,389
the clearly of being designed to work

340
00:13:25,579 --> 00:13:23,459
with this substance but what then

341
00:13:27,319 --> 00:13:25,589
happened was around about three years

342
00:13:29,689 --> 00:13:27,329
ago there's a researcher at the

343
00:13:32,629 --> 00:13:29,699
University of Michigan called GMO board

344
00:13:34,670 --> 00:13:32,639
region and she did a series of

345
00:13:36,829 --> 00:13:34,680
experiments quite interestingly two

346
00:13:39,169 --> 00:13:36,839
experiments one of which seemed to give

347
00:13:41,059 --> 00:13:39,179
evidence of da death experience city bus

348
00:13:43,879 --> 00:13:41,069
which was intriguing in itself

349
00:13:45,470 --> 00:13:43,889
rats died and then about 10 or 20

350
00:13:47,869 --> 00:13:45,480
seconds after the rat had died there was

351
00:13:49,460 --> 00:13:47,879
a huge amount of brain activity but then

352
00:13:51,829 --> 00:13:49,470
itself intrigued me as somebody who's

353
00:13:55,100 --> 00:13:51,839
interested experiences more importantly

354
00:13:58,280 --> 00:13:55,110
in a similar experiment they discovered

355
00:14:00,559 --> 00:13:58,290
within the pineal ground of live rats

356
00:14:03,710 --> 00:14:00,569
dimethyltryptamine so for the first time

357
00:14:07,249 --> 00:14:03,720
dimethyltryptamine has been found in a

358
00:14:10,549 --> 00:14:07,259
form within the pipe within the brain of

359
00:14:12,799 --> 00:14:10,559
a live mammal now this is fascinating

360
00:14:14,900 --> 00:14:12,809
because suddenly this changes all rules

361
00:14:16,879 --> 00:14:14,910
because suddenly the idea that

362
00:14:19,309 --> 00:14:16,889
dimethyltryptamine is as Rick Strassman

363
00:14:20,840 --> 00:14:19,319
says our reality modulator we suddenly

364
00:14:22,369 --> 00:14:20,850
have evidence of it and suddenly it

365
00:14:25,489 --> 00:14:22,379
seems that dinosaur tryptamine may have

366
00:14:26,960 --> 00:14:25,499
evolved with us and we have evolved to

367
00:14:30,379 --> 00:14:26,970
be able to process dimethyltryptamine

368
00:14:32,780 --> 00:14:30,389
now if you look at the chemical

369
00:14:35,419 --> 00:14:32,790
structure of melatonin no melatonin is

370
00:14:37,100 --> 00:14:35,429
the substance that is excreted by or

371
00:14:39,290 --> 00:14:37,110
created by the pineal gland

372
00:14:41,360 --> 00:14:39,300
just to go to sleep as we know the

373
00:14:44,629 --> 00:14:41,370
pineal gland is effectively and ossified

374
00:14:46,400 --> 00:14:44,639
i it is leading leave to be the case and

375
00:14:48,949 --> 00:14:46,410
in fact there are animals like a to

376
00:14:50,629 --> 00:14:48,959
torah which is a lizard found in new

377
00:14:52,939 --> 00:14:50,639
zealand that actually has a third either

378
00:14:54,769 --> 00:14:52,949
sits in the center of its horrid but

379
00:14:57,530 --> 00:14:54,779
it's gone back into the center of rain

380
00:14:59,059 --> 00:14:57,540
it sits in the center of brain and it

381
00:15:01,579 --> 00:14:59,069
sits above something called the optic

382
00:15:03,829 --> 00:15:01,589
chiasma where is where the light signals

383
00:15:06,259 --> 00:15:03,839
or the processed which signals the

384
00:15:08,360 --> 00:15:06,269
energy of the electrical impulses going

385
00:15:11,539 --> 00:15:08,370
along the neutrons got along and it sits

386
00:15:13,939 --> 00:15:11,549
right above this so it's very aware or

387
00:15:16,100 --> 00:15:13,949
it's the sense to the fact the world's

388
00:15:18,679 --> 00:15:16,110
don't dock and when the external work

389
00:15:19,220 --> 00:15:18,689
goes off then goes right and i need to

390
00:15:23,470 --> 00:15:19,230
create

391
00:15:26,359 --> 00:15:23,480
melatonin to make my entity go to sleep

392
00:15:29,960 --> 00:15:26,369
but well atoning can be synthesized and

393
00:15:31,730 --> 00:15:29,970
changed in do what beach parrots to sir

394
00:15:32,180 --> 00:15:31,740
a researcher in the states whose work

395
00:15:35,120 --> 00:15:32,190
with

396
00:15:37,130 --> 00:15:35,130
cause Mehta tonin and Metta tonin is

397
00:15:39,950 --> 00:15:37,140
endogenous that is internally generated

398
00:15:43,040 --> 00:15:39,960
dimethyltryptamine okay now if this is

399
00:15:44,990 --> 00:15:43,050
the case and that they could evidence

400
00:15:46,610 --> 00:15:45,000
and it could because I believe my

401
00:15:49,370 --> 00:15:46,620
writings I don't just make nice they

402
00:15:52,010 --> 00:15:49,380
really go into the research and there is

403
00:15:56,420 --> 00:15:52,020
a state that is known as Takara mudra

404
00:15:58,760 --> 00:15:56,430
and kakora mudra is when people trained

405
00:15:59,960 --> 00:15:58,770
themselves and what they do is normally

406
00:16:01,910 --> 00:15:59,970
in India but they trained ourselves to

407
00:16:04,700 --> 00:16:01,920
place the tongue they flip the tongue

408
00:16:06,290 --> 00:16:04,710
back to the back of the throat and they

409
00:16:08,480 --> 00:16:06,300
want to do this because they want to

410
00:16:10,670 --> 00:16:08,490
taste what's called the net the ambrosia

411
00:16:12,680 --> 00:16:10,680
nectar the nectar of transcendence which

412
00:16:14,480 --> 00:16:12,690
is an acidic taste they get at the back

413
00:16:16,640 --> 00:16:14,490
of the throat which then puts them in

414
00:16:19,400 --> 00:16:16,650
altered states of consciousness now is

415
00:16:24,230 --> 00:16:19,410
intriguing here is that the 49th day of

416
00:16:25,730 --> 00:16:24,240
gestation the embryo in the womb as it's

417
00:16:27,740 --> 00:16:25,740
developing now forty-nine third

418
00:16:29,060 --> 00:16:27,750
gestation is SETI's is important in

419
00:16:30,740 --> 00:16:29,070
itself because if you look at Buddhist

420
00:16:35,240 --> 00:16:30,750
tradition that's when they believe the

421
00:16:38,900 --> 00:16:35,250
soul enters the body and enters again at

422
00:16:40,580 --> 00:16:38,910
that time the there is a the the pineal

423
00:16:42,320 --> 00:16:40,590
gland and the pituitary gland or a

424
00:16:44,110 --> 00:16:42,330
single unit which sits at the back of

425
00:16:46,520 --> 00:16:44,120
the throat and it's called the epiphysis

426
00:16:49,490 --> 00:16:46,530
from the fourth day of gestation it

427
00:16:51,500 --> 00:16:49,500
moves up the back of the brain to the

428
00:16:54,410 --> 00:16:51,510
brain and then moves up to the center of

429
00:16:57,200 --> 00:16:54,420
the brain where then the the two things

430
00:16:58,850 --> 00:16:57,210
part where it becomes the pituitary and

431
00:17:01,070 --> 00:16:58,860
the pineal body so the pituitary in the

432
00:17:02,750 --> 00:17:01,080
pineal body and they become separate but

433
00:17:04,640 --> 00:17:02,760
with many people what it leaves is

434
00:17:06,380 --> 00:17:04,650
something called rathke's cleft the

435
00:17:09,199 --> 00:17:06,390
rough key out which is a kind of a

436
00:17:11,689 --> 00:17:09,209
slight opening that go to the center of

437
00:17:14,059 --> 00:17:11,699
the brain now if the pineal bank does

438
00:17:16,309 --> 00:17:14,069
release dimethyltryptamine this is

439
00:17:18,650 --> 00:17:16,319
likely to be the root were accessed my

440
00:17:20,569 --> 00:17:18,660
dad will trip to me may trip down to the

441
00:17:23,090 --> 00:17:20,579
point of the throat so is this what

442
00:17:25,730 --> 00:17:23,100
cacao mudra is all about is this

443
00:17:27,530 --> 00:17:25,740
something that individuals can do and

444
00:17:30,470 --> 00:17:27,540
actually you themselves into altered

445
00:17:33,380 --> 00:17:30,480
states of consciousness now if this idea

446
00:17:35,390 --> 00:17:33,390
that the plan is related in some way it

447
00:17:38,330 --> 00:17:35,400
would explain many many shamanic

448
00:17:40,520 --> 00:17:38,340
traditions such as the bro tribe in

449
00:17:43,580 --> 00:17:40,530
northern Colombia the mountains of

450
00:17:45,320 --> 00:17:43,590
northern Colombia and they train chains

451
00:17:48,350 --> 00:17:45,330
they take children from the

452
00:17:50,870 --> 00:17:48,360
about five or six and they placed them

453
00:17:53,360 --> 00:17:50,880
in total darkness in caves and they do

454
00:17:56,330 --> 00:17:53,370
this for a reason because what they're

455
00:17:58,759 --> 00:17:56,340
trying to do is to train the pineal

456
00:18:00,740 --> 00:17:58,769
gland to be more effective and which

457
00:18:02,149 --> 00:18:00,750
case is this what shaman's are doing and

458
00:18:04,759 --> 00:18:02,159
of course shaman's have long argued that

459
00:18:07,370 --> 00:18:04,769
and if you look at the writings like

460
00:18:10,009 --> 00:18:07,380
Benny Shannon in his in his in his book

461
00:18:12,860 --> 00:18:10,019
on deer on ayahuasca you will discover

462
00:18:14,960 --> 00:18:12,870
that ayahuasca was discovered or

463
00:18:16,580 --> 00:18:14,970
technically has been known for many

464
00:18:18,500 --> 00:18:16,590
years and it's a mixture of two

465
00:18:21,560 --> 00:18:18,510
different plants banisteriopsis caapi

466
00:18:23,840 --> 00:18:21,570
and psychiatric very das psychiatric

467
00:18:27,019 --> 00:18:23,850
villa d'este contains DMT banisteriopsis

468
00:18:29,330 --> 00:18:27,029
caapi doesn't but they mix these two

469
00:18:31,310 --> 00:18:29,340
plants together now there are 50,000

470
00:18:34,490 --> 00:18:31,320
different types of plants in the amazon

471
00:18:36,350 --> 00:18:34,500
basin but the shaman's put two together

472
00:18:39,799 --> 00:18:36,360
and mixed them in exactly the right way

473
00:18:41,720 --> 00:18:39,809
because you could eat as much of leaves

474
00:18:42,799 --> 00:18:41,730
a psychiatric with us even though

475
00:18:44,450 --> 00:18:42,809
there's a empty in there and you would

476
00:18:46,549 --> 00:18:44,460
never get high and then really you can

477
00:18:48,320 --> 00:18:46,559
get high is that the leaves dough is of

478
00:18:49,430 --> 00:18:48,330
the stomach and the stomach excreted

479
00:18:51,860 --> 00:18:49,440
something called mono

480
00:18:53,690 --> 00:18:51,870
I mean oxidized and it's something that

481
00:18:55,970 --> 00:18:53,700
lies the stomach and stops the

482
00:18:58,940 --> 00:18:55,980
hallucinatory effects getting through

483
00:19:01,159 --> 00:18:58,950
insulin into the blood however the

484
00:19:04,419 --> 00:19:01,169
banisteriopsis caapi contains homily and

485
00:19:06,830 --> 00:19:04,429
homily is a monoamine oxidase inhibitor

486
00:19:10,100 --> 00:19:06,840
so they put two plants together that

487
00:19:11,960 --> 00:19:10,110
work together to allow and facilitate it

488
00:19:13,460 --> 00:19:11,970
to cross the blood-brain barrier to go

489
00:19:15,680 --> 00:19:13,470
into the brain to actually cause

490
00:19:17,990 --> 00:19:15,690
hallucinatory states when they were

491
00:19:19,580 --> 00:19:18,000
asked how they developed this and this

492
00:19:21,350 --> 00:19:19,590
gets extraordinary and this is debt

493
00:19:23,690 --> 00:19:21,360
directly pertinent to our conversation

494
00:19:26,000 --> 00:19:23,700
they were accidently said when they are

495
00:19:27,680 --> 00:19:26,010
shamans in years gone by when shamanic

496
00:19:29,690 --> 00:19:27,690
traveling that is when they went into

497
00:19:30,889 --> 00:19:29,700
the other world of the lower world the

498
00:19:33,919 --> 00:19:30,899
meeting encountered their Shiva manic

499
00:19:35,769 --> 00:19:33,929
totems but the most thing powder plants

500
00:19:39,379 --> 00:19:35,779
that would speak to them and this

501
00:19:41,720 --> 00:19:39,389
sentence literally told this tremens and

502
00:19:44,180 --> 00:19:41,730
said if you go into the jungle and you

503
00:19:47,289 --> 00:19:44,190
take this plant and showed it to them in

504
00:19:49,159 --> 00:19:47,299
the hallucinogenic state or in the

505
00:19:50,330 --> 00:19:49,169
hypnagogic State or what everyone want

506
00:19:52,549 --> 00:19:50,340
to call altered states of consciousness

507
00:19:54,830 --> 00:19:52,559
they showed them the two plants that put

508
00:19:57,889 --> 00:19:54,840
these two plants together in this way

509
00:19:58,530 --> 00:19:57,899
and you will allow non shamanic people

510
00:20:00,720 --> 00:19:58,540
you

511
00:20:01,890 --> 00:20:00,730
typicals for want of a better term to be

512
00:20:04,140 --> 00:20:01,900
able to experience the things you

513
00:20:05,820 --> 00:20:04,150
experience so they never lie that's the

514
00:20:08,130 --> 00:20:05,830
ask the question in my own mind this

515
00:20:10,860 --> 00:20:08,140
suggests sentience and it suggests

516
00:20:13,650 --> 00:20:10,870
intelligence now I finally make a final

517
00:20:16,440 --> 00:20:13,660
point on this because this is very

518
00:20:18,390 --> 00:20:16,450
important a group of people I know are

519
00:20:20,070 --> 00:20:18,400
working at the moment at Imperial

520
00:20:24,030 --> 00:20:20,080
College in London and they're doing

521
00:20:26,130 --> 00:20:24,040
research into Deonte it's AIT's a it's a

522
00:20:29,160 --> 00:20:26,140
fully funded and it's fully legal and

523
00:20:31,520 --> 00:20:29,170
they're taking DMT intravenously one of

524
00:20:35,340 --> 00:20:31,530
my associates is a guy called dr. Karl

525
00:20:36,660 --> 00:20:35,350
Cole Smith and Carl was explaining to me

526
00:20:38,340 --> 00:20:36,670
that what they do is they take an

527
00:20:41,250 --> 00:20:38,350
intravenously like Rick Strassman

528
00:20:43,140 --> 00:20:41,260
people did and he said he'd volunteered

529
00:20:45,810 --> 00:20:43,150
and he took it and he found himself in

530
00:20:47,610 --> 00:20:45,820
what he calls the DMT zone it's the kind

531
00:20:49,020 --> 00:20:47,620
of a place you find yourself rocketed

532
00:20:51,630 --> 00:20:49,030
out your body in you're in this place

533
00:20:53,490 --> 00:20:51,640
which is more real than this reality he

534
00:20:56,940 --> 00:20:53,500
said why do you sir this entity came

535
00:20:59,280 --> 00:20:56,950
over to him and he I bawled him prodded

536
00:21:01,080 --> 00:20:59,290
him and said you should not be doing it

537
00:21:03,270 --> 00:21:01,090
this way please do not do it this way

538
00:21:06,660 --> 00:21:03,280
this is the wrong way to do it and it

539
00:21:09,600 --> 00:21:06,670
backed off again he then comes - two

540
00:21:11,790 --> 00:21:09,610
weeks later he takes another EPA empty

541
00:21:14,340 --> 00:21:11,800
tray thankfully same place exactly the

542
00:21:16,370 --> 00:21:14,350
same as David says I told you last time

543
00:21:19,080 --> 00:21:16,380
do not do it this way

544
00:21:21,270 --> 00:21:19,090
extraordinary you know that's and as he

545
00:21:23,460 --> 00:21:21,280
said to me this means that this entity

546
00:21:25,020 --> 00:21:23,470
was doing things and had motivation

547
00:21:27,390 --> 00:21:25,030
people counter to what I wanted to do

548
00:21:29,010 --> 00:21:27,400
because I wanted to do it that way all

549
00:21:31,440 --> 00:21:29,020
my team wanted to do it this way but

550
00:21:32,460 --> 00:21:31,450
this entity is saying no you can't you

551
00:21:35,460 --> 00:21:32,470
can't do it this way it's the wrong

552
00:21:38,130 --> 00:21:35,470
right intriguing and my idea is what are

553
00:21:39,780 --> 00:21:38,140
these beings are they part of us they

554
00:21:42,060 --> 00:21:39,790
part of our subconscious are they

555
00:21:43,110 --> 00:21:42,070
Jungian archetypes but if they are they

556
00:21:44,700 --> 00:21:43,120
seem to have a degree of Independence

557
00:21:50,430 --> 00:21:44,710
and that's where I come up with a

558
00:21:53,730 --> 00:21:50,440
concept of the egregore eels yeah it's

559
00:21:55,110 --> 00:21:53,740
so much so so so much we're just can do

560
00:21:57,150 --> 00:21:55,120
the best we can I stop saying that

561
00:21:58,500 --> 00:21:57,160
because it gets a little old you know

562
00:22:02,640 --> 00:21:58,510
one of the things that you touched on

563
00:22:05,250 --> 00:22:02,650
that I thought we might dive into is the

564
00:22:07,320 --> 00:22:05,260
question of reality because we have to

565
00:22:09,830 --> 00:22:07,330
remind people that on this little

566
00:22:14,120 --> 00:22:09,840
journey that we're on here we are

567
00:22:15,710 --> 00:22:14,130
so past materialistic biologic robots

568
00:22:18,919 --> 00:22:15,720
and meaningless universe I mean we have

569
00:22:21,200 --> 00:22:18,929
left that completely aside which we

570
00:22:23,510 --> 00:22:21,210
should but it's interesting to know that

571
00:22:25,760 --> 00:22:23,520
that's where we're kind of held by our

572
00:22:28,010 --> 00:22:25,770
science now one of the things that

573
00:22:30,080 --> 00:22:28,020
you're saying about reality and we've

574
00:22:33,440 --> 00:22:30,090
had some interesting people on this show

575
00:22:37,610 --> 00:22:33,450
say the same thing and that is we are

576
00:22:41,019 --> 00:22:37,620
somehow in some way co-creators of that

577
00:22:44,960 --> 00:22:41,029
reality number one and that number two

578
00:22:47,149 --> 00:22:44,970
something on the order of a simulation

579
00:22:48,289 --> 00:22:47,159
although that's a really touchy word and

580
00:22:50,930 --> 00:22:48,299
we don't really know what that would

581
00:22:54,320 --> 00:22:50,940
mean and simulation of what an infinite

582
00:22:56,539 --> 00:22:54,330
regress but something on the order of a

583
00:22:59,450 --> 00:22:56,549
simulation in some way seems to better

584
00:23:01,789 --> 00:22:59,460
fit the reality information we keep

585
00:23:05,169 --> 00:23:01,799
coming back to I think there's also the

586
00:23:07,789 --> 00:23:05,179
issue of augmented reality and augmented

587
00:23:10,789 --> 00:23:07,799
consciousness where technologically we

588
00:23:14,389 --> 00:23:10,799
see through strong AI that we are right

589
00:23:16,220 --> 00:23:14,399
on the cusp of augmented consciousness

590
00:23:20,539 --> 00:23:16,230
and that we may be on the cusp of

591
00:23:22,039 --> 00:23:20,549
augmented reality but this is one area

592
00:23:24,080 --> 00:23:22,049
that I think we're gonna have to pack

593
00:23:25,850 --> 00:23:24,090
back into this discussion I don't know

594
00:23:27,919 --> 00:23:25,860
if now is the right time to do it I

595
00:23:29,870 --> 00:23:27,929
think though yeah I think so this is

596
00:23:31,639 --> 00:23:29,880
something that has intrigued me for a

597
00:23:33,110 --> 00:23:31,649
long time I mean from my book being

598
00:23:34,850 --> 00:23:33,120
through to opening the doors of

599
00:23:37,639 --> 00:23:34,860
perception to this latest book this is

600
00:23:40,700 --> 00:23:37,649
very much a theme that's been intriguing

601
00:23:42,529 --> 00:23:40,710
me and again I like to do the science of

602
00:23:44,690 --> 00:23:42,539
this I'd like to know why it aiming to

603
00:23:47,000 --> 00:23:44,700
these conclusions that at its basic

604
00:23:48,409 --> 00:23:47,010
level reality for want of a better term

605
00:23:51,200 --> 00:23:48,419
is digital in nature

606
00:23:52,789 --> 00:23:51,210
why have we concluded that well of

607
00:23:57,049 --> 00:23:52,799
course the first question is that we

608
00:23:58,760 --> 00:23:57,059
mean the space the solid objects in

609
00:24:01,970 --> 00:23:58,770
ninety nine point nine nine nine nine

610
00:24:05,870 --> 00:24:01,980
nine nine nine nine nine nine nine nine

611
00:24:08,450 --> 00:24:05,880
six at his face and what he's inside

612
00:24:10,940 --> 00:24:08,460
that empty space are all literally

613
00:24:12,590 --> 00:24:10,950
quacks you know effectively you know

614
00:24:14,090 --> 00:24:12,600
it's a knock down and it's a down quark

615
00:24:15,350 --> 00:24:14,100
it's either two down quarks and one up

616
00:24:17,990 --> 00:24:15,360
quark or two up quarks and one down

617
00:24:20,750 --> 00:24:18,000
quark that makes up the the proton and a

618
00:24:22,580 --> 00:24:20,760
neutron then we have the electrons that

619
00:24:23,660 --> 00:24:22,590
are whizzing round but when inside the

620
00:24:25,730 --> 00:24:23,670
atom there's

621
00:24:27,020 --> 00:24:25,740
nothing and the only reason we don't

622
00:24:29,120 --> 00:24:27,030
fall through the floor and everything

623
00:24:30,740 --> 00:24:29,130
else is electrostatic repulsion on the

624
00:24:33,530 --> 00:24:30,750
edges and atoms themselves something the

625
00:24:35,540 --> 00:24:33,540
molecules so we something brings

626
00:24:38,180 --> 00:24:35,550
something solidly together and of course

627
00:24:40,430 --> 00:24:38,190
that's human perception now if you then

628
00:24:42,380 --> 00:24:40,440
hold on hold on because that that would

629
00:24:44,000 --> 00:24:42,390
that might contradict with what you said

630
00:24:45,980 --> 00:24:44,010
before right and here's where the

631
00:24:47,990 --> 00:24:45,990
backdoor materialism gets in and I

632
00:24:50,930 --> 00:24:48,000
really wanted to get your opinion on

633
00:24:54,320 --> 00:24:50,940
this because on one hand we can talk

634
00:24:56,630 --> 00:24:54,330
about the sentience in this extended

635
00:24:58,760 --> 00:24:56,640
realm so I'm calling an extended

636
00:25:00,380 --> 00:24:58,770
consciousness you're tall and you're

637
00:25:02,840 --> 00:25:00,390
talking about something outside of

638
00:25:05,270 --> 00:25:02,850
consensual reality we're really saying

639
00:25:08,200 --> 00:25:05,280
the same thing but the the one thing I

640
00:25:10,160 --> 00:25:08,210
wonder about is if we're talking about

641
00:25:12,950 --> 00:25:10,170
that sentience

642
00:25:15,830 --> 00:25:12,960
do we want to pack it back into that

643
00:25:17,960 --> 00:25:15,840
biological robot this is how things work

644
00:25:20,120 --> 00:25:17,970
this is how we break everything down and

645
00:25:21,620 --> 00:25:20,130
we understand everything in this realm

646
00:25:23,060 --> 00:25:21,630
and if we are going to do that and we're

647
00:25:24,980 --> 00:25:23,070
gonna say there's sentience out there in

648
00:25:28,250 --> 00:25:24,990
this extended realm then what is our

649
00:25:30,800 --> 00:25:28,260
relationship to that sentence and what

650
00:25:32,780 --> 00:25:30,810
is our relationship to the biomechanics

651
00:25:35,210 --> 00:25:32,790
of what we experience like when you're

652
00:25:38,330 --> 00:25:35,220
talking about Yogi's who put their

653
00:25:40,490 --> 00:25:38,340
tongue in a bit why I mean what is the

654
00:25:42,230 --> 00:25:40,500
we have to get to kind of purpose and

655
00:25:44,240 --> 00:25:42,240
meaning kind of questions I think is

656
00:25:45,620 --> 00:25:44,250
where I'm headed but there's not enough

657
00:25:48,650 --> 00:25:45,630
time in the day to get there but you

658
00:25:50,360 --> 00:25:48,660
know we we fall into teleology now don't

659
00:25:53,000 --> 00:25:50,370
we and we and this is one of the great

660
00:25:55,340 --> 00:25:53,010
questions isn't it of this kind of one

661
00:25:57,170 --> 00:25:55,350
minute we're saying that somehow the

662
00:25:59,390 --> 00:25:57,180
chemicals in the brain are affecting

663
00:26:01,760 --> 00:25:59,400
consciousness and affecting our

664
00:26:03,440 --> 00:26:01,770
awareness but then we have the problem

665
00:26:08,090 --> 00:26:03,450
of dualism because the problem is how

666
00:26:11,680 --> 00:26:08,100
can a physical step of chemicals albeit

667
00:26:15,590 --> 00:26:11,690
made of 99.9 percent empty space affect

668
00:26:17,180 --> 00:26:15,600
me if I'm not if I'm some form of

669
00:26:18,860 --> 00:26:17,190
consciousness field or something

670
00:26:21,890 --> 00:26:18,870
experiencing something within a

671
00:26:24,830 --> 00:26:21,900
consciousness field by reducing into my

672
00:26:26,510 --> 00:26:24,840
brains something that is a field so what

673
00:26:30,020 --> 00:26:26,520
we need to do is to take one step back

674
00:26:33,220 --> 00:26:30,030
and go back lower to say well if we say

675
00:26:35,900 --> 00:26:33,230
like David Bohm argued the

676
00:26:36,860 --> 00:26:35,910
anglo-american physicist in his

677
00:26:39,740 --> 00:26:36,870
arguments about the

678
00:26:42,080 --> 00:26:39,750
because an explicit orders in some way

679
00:26:46,010 --> 00:26:42,090
it's a deeper level of reality there is

680
00:26:49,280 --> 00:26:46,020
there is a severity and physical things

681
00:26:50,480 --> 00:26:49,290
and mental things are both kind of

682
00:26:52,790 --> 00:26:50,490
well-known we say there's the

683
00:26:54,950 --> 00:26:52,800
singularity then there is consciousness

684
00:26:57,710 --> 00:26:54,960
and awareness and consciousness then

685
00:26:59,720 --> 00:26:57,720
brings about physical world quite the

686
00:27:00,980 --> 00:26:59,730
act of observation because again we

687
00:27:03,920 --> 00:27:00,990
could argue couldn't we you know the

688
00:27:06,260 --> 00:27:03,930
quantum physics we know that from the

689
00:27:07,430 --> 00:27:06,270
company hard and hagun interpretation we

690
00:27:08,240 --> 00:27:07,440
and from the collapse of the

691
00:27:10,400 --> 00:27:08,250
wavefunction

692
00:27:12,290 --> 00:27:10,410
that some atomic particles until they

693
00:27:14,360 --> 00:27:12,300
are measured and observed can be

694
00:27:16,160 --> 00:27:14,370
technically anywhere in the universe and

695
00:27:18,500 --> 00:27:16,170
there's a statistical chance they could

696
00:27:20,360 --> 00:27:18,510
be anywhere but then they are observed

697
00:27:21,919 --> 00:27:20,370
or measured they they are then reduced

698
00:27:24,230 --> 00:27:21,929
Li what point particle exists in a

699
00:27:26,330 --> 00:27:24,240
particular location in space and time no

700
00:27:28,250 --> 00:27:26,340
it maybe people have heard that a

701
00:27:31,730 --> 00:27:28,260
million times but I always think it's

702
00:27:35,240 --> 00:27:31,740
worth repeating and that is the power of

703
00:27:37,130 --> 00:27:35,250
the double slit experiment yeah what it

704
00:27:40,549 --> 00:27:37,140
means in terms of the observer effect

705
00:27:42,500 --> 00:27:40,559
and just to remind people I'd like you

706
00:27:44,360 --> 00:27:42,510
to explore this because the book does a

707
00:27:48,140 --> 00:27:44,370
nice job of talking about some of this

708
00:27:49,850 --> 00:27:48,150
quantum physics science that is really

709
00:27:52,010 --> 00:27:49,860
the bedrock of the world that we live in

710
00:27:54,710 --> 00:27:52,020
the theories and formulas that have come

711
00:27:57,350 --> 00:27:54,720
out of that have been proven over and

712
00:28:00,049 --> 00:27:57,360
over again our rock-solid that is a bill

713
00:28:03,710 --> 00:28:00,059
we build engineer stuff off of those and

714
00:28:05,390 --> 00:28:03,720
even as uncomfortable as we are with the

715
00:28:08,240 --> 00:28:05,400
double slit experiment because again

716
00:28:12,890 --> 00:28:08,250
let's remind people that the double slit

717
00:28:15,140 --> 00:28:12,900
experiment answers the Zen question if a

718
00:28:18,350 --> 00:28:15,150
tree falls in the forest and there's no

719
00:28:20,180 --> 00:28:18,360
one there to hear it well then the tree

720
00:28:22,070 --> 00:28:20,190
doesn't make any noise and I would just

721
00:28:24,440 --> 00:28:22,080
want to remind people that the double

722
00:28:27,770 --> 00:28:24,450
slit experiment has been repeated over

723
00:28:29,720 --> 00:28:27,780
and over and over and if you hear people

724
00:28:31,669 --> 00:28:29,730
say well it only works at a subatomic

725
00:28:33,440 --> 00:28:31,679
level not true

726
00:28:35,480 --> 00:28:33,450
please add to that anything that I've

727
00:28:38,750 --> 00:28:35,490
well the thing is the double slit

728
00:28:41,090 --> 00:28:38,760
experiment as you so eloquently put

729
00:28:45,080 --> 00:28:41,100
there you know is has been repeated many

730
00:28:47,200 --> 00:28:45,090
many times and we know that if certain

731
00:28:49,580 --> 00:28:47,210
atomic particles are not observed the

732
00:28:51,380 --> 00:28:49,590
particles go through the twins

733
00:28:53,230 --> 00:28:51,390
and they're not observed and they

734
00:28:55,340 --> 00:28:53,240
actually created an interference pattern

735
00:28:57,260 --> 00:28:55,350
whereas if you put a measurement device

736
00:28:59,330 --> 00:28:57,270
from one of the slits or one of the

737
00:29:02,240 --> 00:28:59,340
other sets and you sight fire single

738
00:29:04,100 --> 00:29:02,250
photons or single electrons through they

739
00:29:05,830 --> 00:29:04,110
go through one at a time as if they know

740
00:29:09,140 --> 00:29:05,840
they're being dirt and they're reduced

741
00:29:10,880 --> 00:29:09,150
don't point particles now is she again

742
00:29:12,769 --> 00:29:10,890
rightly say I mean you know the great

743
00:29:14,990 --> 00:29:12,779
Tom Campbell you know as Tom our views

744
00:29:18,320 --> 00:29:15,000
you know we won't be render what reality

745
00:29:20,390 --> 00:29:18,330
we need in order to exist in this again

746
00:29:21,680 --> 00:29:20,400
I agree with you it's dangerous to use

747
00:29:23,990 --> 00:29:21,690
the term simulation because the

748
00:29:25,940 --> 00:29:24,000
simulation suggests that it is a

749
00:29:28,310 --> 00:29:25,950
simulation of something else and you get

750
00:29:30,049 --> 00:29:28,320
an infinite regress by doing that but if

751
00:29:32,000 --> 00:29:30,059
the we'd say that the true nature of

752
00:29:35,149 --> 00:29:32,010
everything we perceive is actually

753
00:29:37,310 --> 00:29:35,159
information and that everything is made

754
00:29:39,139 --> 00:29:37,320
up of information and again I'd strongly

755
00:29:42,049 --> 00:29:39,149
advise the writings of some daylight

756
00:29:43,610 --> 00:29:42,059
flak over drell is very useful in this

757
00:29:44,840 --> 00:29:43,620
he's one of the top young quantum

758
00:29:46,700 --> 00:29:44,850
physicists that is coming up at the

759
00:29:48,470 --> 00:29:46,710
moment but you don't even need to read

760
00:29:49,669 --> 00:29:48,480
the drell you know you just need to read

761
00:29:50,360 --> 00:29:49,679
some of the latest work of Stephen

762
00:29:51,799 --> 00:29:50,370
Hawking

763
00:29:54,470 --> 00:29:51,809
you only need to read support King's

764
00:29:56,750 --> 00:29:54,480
work on Hawking radiation the way in

765
00:29:58,639 --> 00:29:56,760
which information cannot be lost what

766
00:30:00,710 --> 00:29:58,649
happens if you throw a computer into a

767
00:30:02,299 --> 00:30:00,720
black hole because it's an enclosed

768
00:30:04,549 --> 00:30:02,309
system and they're fun we know that

769
00:30:06,350 --> 00:30:04,559
information is energy so there are these

770
00:30:09,590 --> 00:30:06,360
huge areas now that people are starting

771
00:30:13,330 --> 00:30:09,600
to realize but as Alex as you and I know

772
00:30:16,279 --> 00:30:13,340
this has been known effectively since

773
00:30:18,260 --> 00:30:16,289
1900 when Max Planck decided the quantum

774
00:30:20,930 --> 00:30:18,270
the only way to explain certain

775
00:30:24,909 --> 00:30:20,940
behaviors of blackbody radiation but we

776
00:30:27,350 --> 00:30:24,919
also know say from 1925 1926 max ball

777
00:30:28,789 --> 00:30:27,360
Schrodinger equation all these things

778
00:30:31,190 --> 00:30:28,799
build up to that

779
00:30:32,659 --> 00:30:31,200
the reality is definitely not what we

780
00:30:35,600 --> 00:30:32,669
think this and there is a direct

781
00:30:38,120 --> 00:30:35,610
relationship and again the idea is you

782
00:30:40,669 --> 00:30:38,130
again say this the we effects are only

783
00:30:42,980 --> 00:30:40,679
seen at a type level is nonsense

784
00:30:44,690 --> 00:30:42,990
you know the cycle downturns I linger at

785
00:30:48,049 --> 00:30:44,700
the University of Vienna has been doing

786
00:30:50,360 --> 00:30:48,059
work on this and they can be doing the

787
00:30:52,310 --> 00:30:50,370
twinset experiment with pokeballs balls

788
00:30:55,070 --> 00:30:52,320
have 60 molecules dinner

789
00:30:56,480 --> 00:30:55,080
these are big molecules these are things

790
00:30:58,190 --> 00:30:56,490
that are all almost the size of the

791
00:30:59,750 --> 00:30:58,200
virus you know I don't know how they

792
00:31:01,639 --> 00:30:59,760
numbers but they are still getting

793
00:31:02,760 --> 00:31:01,649
bigger and bigger and we have still yet

794
00:31:05,070 --> 00:31:02,770
to find the border

795
00:31:07,530 --> 00:31:05,080
we're Newtonian physics takes over and

796
00:31:11,400 --> 00:31:07,540
quantum physics of course then we have

797
00:31:13,170 --> 00:31:11,410
the mystery the quantum physics and iron

798
00:31:15,330 --> 00:31:13,180
still in physics which deals with the

799
00:31:17,280 --> 00:31:15,340
very big they are work together math

800
00:31:19,980 --> 00:31:17,290
doesn't work together so that clearly is

801
00:31:23,610 --> 00:31:19,990
a mismatch with what we think is really

802
00:31:25,260 --> 00:31:23,620
happening and the the point really here

803
00:31:28,860 --> 00:31:25,270
is that I think that the major issue

804
00:31:30,990 --> 00:31:28,870
here is understanding that everything is

805
00:31:34,440 --> 00:31:31,000
a field and there's a consciousness

806
00:31:36,090 --> 00:31:34,450
field and I'm slipping here now into the

807
00:31:38,160 --> 00:31:36,100
writings I've done and I've contributed

808
00:31:39,930 --> 00:31:38,170
a couple of chapters two books on and

809
00:31:41,400 --> 00:31:39,940
deism and the idea that we're all

810
00:31:43,170 --> 00:31:41,410
conscious experiencing itself

811
00:31:45,420 --> 00:31:43,180
subjectively and there were like

812
00:31:48,210 --> 00:31:45,430
emanations of information of

813
00:31:50,280 --> 00:31:48,220
consciousness which I wrote a book a few

814
00:31:52,500 --> 00:31:50,290
years ago with Ervin Laszlo and of

815
00:31:55,620 --> 00:31:52,510
course Laszlo has his idea of the

816
00:31:57,300 --> 00:31:55,630
zero-point field the field which again

817
00:31:58,980 --> 00:31:57,310
you touched upon before that these

818
00:32:01,610 --> 00:31:58,990
effects are actually seen just as you

819
00:32:04,200 --> 00:32:01,620
get slightly above absolute zero

820
00:32:06,930 --> 00:32:04,210
suddenly all kinds of weird effects

821
00:32:09,240 --> 00:32:06,940
start taking place as well and the the

822
00:32:11,040 --> 00:32:09,250
zero-point field suggests that empty

823
00:32:12,930 --> 00:32:11,050
space is not empty at all it's not a

824
00:32:17,820 --> 00:32:12,940
vacuum it's a plenum it's absolutely

825
00:32:21,210 --> 00:32:17,830
full of seething and things the coming

826
00:32:22,860 --> 00:32:21,220
in and out of reality and again you read

827
00:32:25,020 --> 00:32:22,870
the books on quantum physics these days

828
00:32:26,910 --> 00:32:25,030
we have what's called virtual particles

829
00:32:28,920 --> 00:32:26,920
these are particles that don't exist

830
00:32:30,810 --> 00:32:28,930
come into existence for a beat of a

831
00:32:32,000 --> 00:32:30,820
second and then disappear against

832
00:32:35,160 --> 00:32:32,010
somewhere else

833
00:32:37,530 --> 00:32:35,170
94% of the universe is missing it's dark

834
00:32:39,300 --> 00:32:37,540
matter or dark energy we are known what

835
00:32:42,000 --> 00:32:39,310
it is that's why we call it dark matter

836
00:32:44,250 --> 00:32:42,010
and dark energy so we are in a similar

837
00:32:47,760 --> 00:32:44,260
position in our science to where the

838
00:32:50,670 --> 00:32:47,770
scientists were the turn of the 19th to

839
00:32:54,570 --> 00:32:50,680
the 20th centuries we are suffering from

840
00:32:55,950 --> 00:32:54,580
this this this hubris no the the God

841
00:32:58,920 --> 00:32:55,960
Mickelson made a statement he was

842
00:33:01,680 --> 00:32:58,930
opening up a new laboratory at the

843
00:33:03,450 --> 00:33:01,690
University of Chicago in about 1894 and

844
00:33:05,760 --> 00:33:03,460
he made this the credible statement and

845
00:33:08,010 --> 00:33:05,770
he said there's no need for scientists

846
00:33:09,720 --> 00:33:08,020
in the future because there's only one

847
00:33:11,400 --> 00:33:09,730
or two little issues we've got in the

848
00:33:13,080 --> 00:33:11,410
future other than that we know

849
00:33:14,850 --> 00:33:13,090
everything and all scientists are going

850
00:33:16,289 --> 00:33:14,860
to be doing is calculating to the sixth

851
00:33:19,229 --> 00:33:16,299
decimal point and

852
00:33:21,180 --> 00:33:19,239
next plank in December 1900 come up with

853
00:33:23,190 --> 00:33:21,190
his idea that energy was quantized and

854
00:33:25,440 --> 00:33:23,200
suddenly it all changed then in 1905

855
00:33:28,289 --> 00:33:25,450
Stein comes with his wonderful year

856
00:33:30,359 --> 00:33:28,299
wearing both three papers and and loaded

857
00:33:32,519 --> 00:33:30,369
everything but we'll still nowhere near

858
00:33:34,440 --> 00:33:32,529
our understanding but now you still have

859
00:33:36,859 --> 00:33:34,450
scientists sounding you're saying we

860
00:33:37,979 --> 00:33:36,869
understand things we don't daily traumas

861
00:33:40,589 --> 00:33:37,989
consciousness

862
00:33:44,070 --> 00:33:40,599
how does enum matter in my head in

863
00:33:46,440 --> 00:33:44,080
Alex's head but how didn't reacting with

864
00:33:49,129 --> 00:33:46,450
electricity how does it create Alex's

865
00:33:51,779 --> 00:33:49,139
hopes he dreamed his aspirations fears

866
00:33:54,629 --> 00:33:51,789
similar with Bonica similar with all the

867
00:33:56,989 --> 00:33:54,639
lists out there it's the hard problem

868
00:33:59,579 --> 00:33:56,999
we're not even at the first base I

869
00:34:01,889 --> 00:33:59,589
totally agree and I just kind of always

870
00:34:04,139 --> 00:34:01,899
have to resist the hard problem what's

871
00:34:06,329 --> 00:34:04,149
the easy problem there is no easy about

872
00:34:08,010 --> 00:34:06,339
it problem is how the brain works and I

873
00:34:09,480 --> 00:34:08,020
guess my point on that is we don't

874
00:34:11,039 --> 00:34:09,490
really understand how the brain works

875
00:34:13,829 --> 00:34:11,049
and we already kind of touched on that

876
00:34:15,720 --> 00:34:13,839
we have all this seemingly contradictory

877
00:34:17,730 --> 00:34:15,730
information we don't know how memory

878
00:34:20,490 --> 00:34:17,740
works and our neurological models of

879
00:34:22,859 --> 00:34:20,500
memory fail as you say it's all about

880
00:34:25,049 --> 00:34:22,869
white crows and black swans I love that

881
00:34:27,480 --> 00:34:25,059
quote in your book so you can bounce

882
00:34:29,700 --> 00:34:27,490
along with your little neurological

883
00:34:31,169 --> 00:34:29,710
model of memory until somebody comes

884
00:34:33,089 --> 00:34:31,179
along with a theory that completely

885
00:34:36,680 --> 00:34:33,099
blows it out of the water such as

886
00:34:39,569 --> 00:34:36,690
out-of-body experience or other provable

887
00:34:42,690 --> 00:34:39,579
side phenomena you know even take deemed

888
00:34:45,720 --> 00:34:42,700
Ravens six-sigma result on presentiment

889
00:34:48,599 --> 00:34:45,730
it completely destroys our neurological

890
00:34:51,389 --> 00:34:48,609
model of memory so there is no easy

891
00:34:52,889 --> 00:34:51,399
problem but I tell you what this we are

892
00:34:55,500 --> 00:34:52,899
going to shift gears for just a minute

893
00:34:57,210 --> 00:34:55,510
because I want to shift focus over to

894
00:35:01,529 --> 00:34:57,220
the afterlife

895
00:35:04,410 --> 00:35:01,539
just as another lens with which to look

896
00:35:06,870 --> 00:35:04,420
at the same issues that we're talking

897
00:35:08,549 --> 00:35:06,880
about because you have a lot of

898
00:35:10,589 --> 00:35:08,559
interesting things to say about the

899
00:35:14,339 --> 00:35:10,599
afterlife and we've already talked about

900
00:35:16,680 --> 00:35:14,349
the DMT connection to near-death

901
00:35:20,069 --> 00:35:16,690
experience but I did want to kind of pin

902
00:35:24,059 --> 00:35:20,079
you down and get your opinion on some

903
00:35:27,029 --> 00:35:24,069
ways that I kind of wonder whether that

904
00:35:29,370 --> 00:35:27,039
is of good fit for the data we have from

905
00:35:30,109 --> 00:35:29,380
the dear deaf experience science and I'd

906
00:35:33,470 --> 00:35:30,119
start by

907
00:35:34,730 --> 00:35:33,480
a couple of things is that I appreciate

908
00:35:36,710 --> 00:35:34,740
what they did at the University of

909
00:35:38,539 --> 00:35:36,720
Michigan I think it's very important I

910
00:35:41,749 --> 00:35:38,549
think the way that you summed it up is

911
00:35:43,910 --> 00:35:41,759
the best that I've heard anyone else do

912
00:35:46,359 --> 00:35:43,920
it and the reason for that is because

913
00:35:49,609 --> 00:35:46,369
you have this expanded consciousness

914
00:35:51,620 --> 00:35:49,619
kind of worldview what I hear so many

915
00:35:53,539 --> 00:35:51,630
times with people who look at that data

916
00:35:57,079 --> 00:35:53,549
is they want to use it as a debunking

917
00:35:58,880 --> 00:35:57,089
exercise and jam things back into this

918
00:36:01,609 --> 00:35:58,890
kind of materialism which clearly

919
00:36:04,249 --> 00:36:01,619
doesn't fit so if I look at for example

920
00:36:06,440 --> 00:36:04,259
the research of dr. Jeffery long was one

921
00:36:08,720 --> 00:36:06,450
of the near-death experience scientists

922
00:36:11,210 --> 00:36:08,730
but all of them agree that there is an

923
00:36:13,549 --> 00:36:11,220
extended consciousness realm here but my

924
00:36:18,109 --> 00:36:13,559
point is that the near-death experience

925
00:36:19,789 --> 00:36:18,119
data is in the experiencers themselves

926
00:36:21,799 --> 00:36:19,799
and we start hearing those accounts and

927
00:36:25,609 --> 00:36:21,809
in those accounts I think there's some

928
00:36:28,670 --> 00:36:25,619
important ways that we can't completely

929
00:36:30,950 --> 00:36:28,680
resolved with the DMT explanation and

930
00:36:32,779 --> 00:36:30,960
I'd like to lay out for those for you

931
00:36:36,650 --> 00:36:32,789
and then we can talk about but the first

932
00:36:38,930 --> 00:36:36,660
one is the continuity of experience so a

933
00:36:42,700 --> 00:36:38,940
lot of people a lot of the near-death

934
00:36:47,269 --> 00:36:42,710
experience accounts begin before death

935
00:36:49,940 --> 00:36:47,279
are there during the death and it

936
00:36:53,239 --> 00:36:49,950
continued after the death and then are

937
00:36:56,059 --> 00:36:53,249
finally and even go after they return to

938
00:36:58,339 --> 00:36:56,069
life so this doesn't like complete it

939
00:37:01,009 --> 00:36:58,349
doesn't contradict your your book or

940
00:37:05,749 --> 00:37:01,019
your conclusions but it doesn't fit well

941
00:37:09,759 --> 00:37:05,759
with the DMT burst for the mice except

942
00:37:13,370 --> 00:37:09,769
that the DMT experience as we know is

943
00:37:15,559 --> 00:37:13,380
outside of space time so now we have but

944
00:37:18,109 --> 00:37:15,569
but we can't really pack that back in

945
00:37:20,630 --> 00:37:18,119
either because we can't have it both

946
00:37:22,430 --> 00:37:20,640
ways we can't say well it's outside of

947
00:37:24,229 --> 00:37:22,440
space-time so then it can transcend any

948
00:37:26,630 --> 00:37:24,239
kind of space-time and then we say but

949
00:37:29,150 --> 00:37:26,640
also we found it in these rats here in

950
00:37:31,789 --> 00:37:29,160
it's ten seconds after we have to

951
00:37:34,700 --> 00:37:31,799
somehow massage that and you get what

952
00:37:38,059 --> 00:37:34,710
I'm saying there yeah the second point I

953
00:37:40,309 --> 00:37:38,069
think is is even more important and

954
00:37:42,049 --> 00:37:40,319
interesting and challenging at the same

955
00:37:44,000 --> 00:37:42,059
time and that's that the accounts from

956
00:37:49,440 --> 00:37:44,010
the near-death experience

957
00:37:50,730 --> 00:37:49,450
suggest a unique kind of journeying and

958
00:37:52,950 --> 00:37:50,740
I think you have some great information

959
00:37:55,620 --> 00:37:52,960
in the book on some unique kind of

960
00:37:58,890 --> 00:37:55,630
journeying associated with for example

961
00:38:03,090 --> 00:37:58,900
certain shamanic experiences that you

962
00:38:05,040 --> 00:38:03,100
know everyone sees the purple leopard or

963
00:38:05,520 --> 00:38:05,050
everyone sees the snakes or Terence

964
00:38:09,290 --> 00:38:05,530
Mckenna

965
00:38:11,820 --> 00:38:09,300
everyone sees elves but in this case

966
00:38:13,650 --> 00:38:11,830
everyone is having and that you can't

967
00:38:15,900 --> 00:38:13,660
say everyone forgive me - people don't

968
00:38:20,310 --> 00:38:15,910
jump on me about everyone but there seem

969
00:38:23,430 --> 00:38:20,320
to be unique very common elements to the

970
00:38:25,440 --> 00:38:23,440
NVE journey but here's the kicker that I

971
00:38:27,150 --> 00:38:25,450
think I really want to interject into

972
00:38:29,160 --> 00:38:27,160
the conversation it'll launch us off

973
00:38:31,500 --> 00:38:29,170
into I think for me one of the most

974
00:38:33,600 --> 00:38:31,510
important points in the whole thing and

975
00:38:35,970 --> 00:38:33,610
it's the big follow-on question to the

976
00:38:38,130 --> 00:38:35,980
book is that the journey of the

977
00:38:41,310 --> 00:38:38,140
near-death experience suggests a

978
00:38:43,770 --> 00:38:41,320
hierarchy of consciousness and I think

979
00:38:48,660 --> 00:38:43,780
you're already there when you talk about

980
00:38:50,820 --> 00:38:48,670
the sentience that is in the shamans it

981
00:38:52,620 --> 00:38:50,830
says aids sick these two plants together

982
00:38:55,349 --> 00:38:52,630
and something's going to happen well in

983
00:38:57,960 --> 00:38:55,359
the near-death experience people say I

984
00:39:00,570 --> 00:38:57,970
encounter God and they say well I don't

985
00:39:02,190 --> 00:39:00,580
have to call it God but for all the ways

986
00:39:05,370 --> 00:39:02,200
that I've always heard about God in my

987
00:39:10,170 --> 00:39:05,380
life this is it it's a higher level it

988
00:39:13,410 --> 00:39:10,180
is something to inform and educate me

989
00:39:16,560 --> 00:39:13,420
and it also says there is a moral

990
00:39:20,310 --> 00:39:16,570
imperative and there is something like a

991
00:39:25,109 --> 00:39:20,320
life review and what you do does matter

992
00:39:28,050 --> 00:39:25,119
and you do have free will so to me these

993
00:39:30,960 --> 00:39:28,060
are the points that are the big takeaway

994
00:39:32,970 --> 00:39:30,970
here that either have to be you know

995
00:39:35,490 --> 00:39:32,980
worked out of it with other data that

996
00:39:40,740 --> 00:39:35,500
pushes them off the table or we somehow

997
00:39:42,270 --> 00:39:40,750
have to work that into beyond simulation

998
00:39:44,609 --> 00:39:42,280
hypothesis kind of thing because

999
00:39:47,940 --> 00:39:44,619
simulation hypothesis leaves us very

1000
00:39:50,970 --> 00:39:47,950
stark and clinical and the near-death

1001
00:39:53,370 --> 00:39:50,980
experience doesn't so I know I've laid a

1002
00:39:55,670 --> 00:39:53,380
lot on the table there but take over and

1003
00:39:57,770 --> 00:39:55,680
let's let's talk about the the world

1004
00:40:00,200 --> 00:39:57,780
parrot oven life review we can do it

1005
00:40:02,420 --> 00:40:00,210
probably systematically in the sense the

1006
00:40:04,760 --> 00:40:02,430
the first thing is about near-death

1007
00:40:06,589 --> 00:40:04,770
experiences themselves and I would argue

1008
00:40:09,470 --> 00:40:06,599
it I know people would size me on this

1009
00:40:11,120 --> 00:40:09,480
the word that in the three words

1010
00:40:14,540 --> 00:40:11,130
near-death experience is the most

1011
00:40:17,420 --> 00:40:14,550
important is near it's a near-death

1012
00:40:18,950 --> 00:40:17,430
experience in my book previous books I

1013
00:40:21,799 --> 00:40:18,960
actually use the term a real death

1014
00:40:24,680 --> 00:40:21,809
experience or an RDA where somebody

1015
00:40:26,780 --> 00:40:24,690
actually dies now I will stand corrected

1016
00:40:29,180 --> 00:40:26,790
on this but I I know of no evidence

1017
00:40:34,549 --> 00:40:29,190
where somebody actually has literally

1018
00:40:36,319 --> 00:40:34,559
died literally died and has died in the

1019
00:40:37,880 --> 00:40:36,329
literal what is that what does that mean

1020
00:40:39,620 --> 00:40:37,890
to you when you say literal sense this

1021
00:40:41,180 --> 00:40:39,630
is the problem isn't it when you when

1022
00:40:43,220 --> 00:40:41,190
you start discussing what do we mean by

1023
00:40:44,839 --> 00:40:43,230
death when does death take place within

1024
00:40:47,059 --> 00:40:44,849
the brain when does death actually

1025
00:40:49,700 --> 00:40:47,069
happen but there is a point where

1026
00:40:53,750 --> 00:40:49,710
presumably the brain ceases to be able

1027
00:40:57,049 --> 00:40:53,760
to process the information field man

1028
00:41:00,260 --> 00:40:57,059
I've wrestled every skeptical world to

1029
00:41:03,680 --> 00:41:00,270
the marinus the best scientist on this

1030
00:41:05,960 --> 00:41:03,690
is a guy named dr. Sam pornea formerly

1031
00:41:07,819 --> 00:41:05,970
at Cornell you actually know that Sam's

1032
00:41:11,420 --> 00:41:07,829
experiments at Southampton University

1033
00:41:14,180 --> 00:41:11,430
and his whole exercise that he did each

1034
00:41:15,680 --> 00:41:14,190
other out-of-body experiences in various

1035
00:41:17,660 --> 00:41:15,690
the things that took place account him

1036
00:41:19,760 --> 00:41:17,670
what it was the actual project was

1037
00:41:21,770 --> 00:41:19,770
called the world project that was it

1038
00:41:23,990 --> 00:41:21,780
yeah awareness after resuscitation

1039
00:41:25,339 --> 00:41:24,000
wasn't it yeah right and just to fill

1040
00:41:26,990 --> 00:41:25,349
people in on the back story and the

1041
00:41:29,960 --> 00:41:27,000
reason that both of us are drawn to his

1042
00:41:32,240 --> 00:41:29,970
work is that independent of him being a

1043
00:41:34,069 --> 00:41:32,250
near-death experience researcher he's

1044
00:41:37,339 --> 00:41:34,079
one of the leading authorities in the

1045
00:41:39,260 --> 00:41:37,349
world on resuscitation and as far as an

1046
00:41:42,470 --> 00:41:39,270
area of medical science we'd want to

1047
00:41:45,500 --> 00:41:42,480
look to to answer that question of did

1048
00:41:47,180 --> 00:41:45,510
they really die a resuscitation expert

1049
00:41:48,470 --> 00:41:47,190
would be the guy we'd look to because

1050
00:41:52,010 --> 00:41:48,480
that's what he does on a day to day

1051
00:41:54,650 --> 00:41:52,020
basis for kind of standard mainstream

1052
00:41:56,930 --> 00:41:54,660
medicine and medical science and if you

1053
00:41:59,000 --> 00:41:56,940
look at what Sam is saying now as

1054
00:42:01,460 --> 00:41:59,010
opposed to what he was saying two or

1055
00:42:04,670 --> 00:42:01,470
three years ago is that he has now come

1056
00:42:08,780 --> 00:42:04,680
around to the idea that clearly the

1057
00:42:09,499 --> 00:42:08,790
evidence from his aware study suggests

1058
00:42:12,829 --> 00:42:09,509
the conscious

1059
00:42:16,009 --> 00:42:12,839
this extends beyond bodily death he's

1060
00:42:17,419 --> 00:42:16,019
very emphatic about talking about what

1061
00:42:19,219 --> 00:42:17,429
you're saying but in a different way he

1062
00:42:21,799 --> 00:42:19,229
says I would not call these near-death

1063
00:42:24,679 --> 00:42:21,809
experiences these are death experiences

1064
00:42:27,679 --> 00:42:24,689
in every way historically and with our

1065
00:42:30,049 --> 00:42:27,689
present medical science we have these

1066
00:42:33,620 --> 00:42:30,059
people some of them a large number of

1067
00:42:36,559 --> 00:42:33,630
them are considered dead so what a lot

1068
00:42:38,749 --> 00:42:36,569
of the skeptics want to do is kind of do

1069
00:42:40,969 --> 00:42:38,759
this pleading to the God of the gaps

1070
00:42:43,819 --> 00:42:40,979
thing well at some time in the future

1071
00:42:47,449 --> 00:42:43,829
we'll find that the brain isn't really

1072
00:42:51,319 --> 00:42:47,459
dead or the rats then in Michigan will

1073
00:42:54,969 --> 00:42:51,329
you know show that we do not have in our

1074
00:42:57,919 --> 00:42:54,979
medical experience to this point any

1075
00:42:59,989 --> 00:42:57,929
indication that any of that will happen

1076
00:43:02,120 --> 00:42:59,999
so that is just pure speculation and

1077
00:43:04,759 --> 00:43:02,130
what we do have our brains that

1078
00:43:06,620 --> 00:43:04,769
shouldn't be able in any neurological

1079
00:43:08,689 --> 00:43:06,630
model that we understand shouldn't be

1080
00:43:11,389 --> 00:43:08,699
able to produce consciousness and we

1081
00:43:14,539 --> 00:43:11,399
have the experience of the out-of-body

1082
00:43:16,939 --> 00:43:14,549
experience in the nd East experience so

1083
00:43:18,199 --> 00:43:16,949
that's my read of where we're at yeah

1084
00:43:19,549 --> 00:43:18,209
I'm with you on that I mean that the

1085
00:43:21,169 --> 00:43:19,559
technical term for what they're doing

1086
00:43:23,659 --> 00:43:21,179
here is called Professor e materialism

1087
00:43:25,370 --> 00:43:23,669
you get a promissory note to say that

1088
00:43:27,379 --> 00:43:25,380
you know yes we don't fully understand

1089
00:43:32,239 --> 00:43:27,389
this but but we will do in the future I

1090
00:43:35,239 --> 00:43:32,249
have a term for it and it's even giving

1091
00:43:36,739 --> 00:43:35,249
things not definitions or nice terms and

1092
00:43:39,919 --> 00:43:36,749
if you can get the noise laughing fades

1093
00:43:42,469 --> 00:43:39,929
like hallucination you know you don't

1094
00:43:44,870 --> 00:43:42,479
you've explained it or you you call it

1095
00:43:46,969 --> 00:43:44,880
out Simas or you call it whatever

1096
00:43:48,409 --> 00:43:46,979
Charles Bonney syndrome but you've never

1097
00:43:50,209 --> 00:43:48,419
not actually explained anything you've

1098
00:43:52,879 --> 00:43:50,219
just given it a label its label theory

1099
00:43:54,949 --> 00:43:52,889
so the question is you know when

1100
00:43:58,009 --> 00:43:54,959
Bendel's death took place or is a

1101
00:44:02,329 --> 00:43:58,019
transitory period now if at the base

1102
00:44:05,059 --> 00:44:02,339
level everything is consciousness if

1103
00:44:08,929 --> 00:44:05,069
consciousness is what creates everything

1104
00:44:12,259 --> 00:44:08,939
around us the idea of death bodily depth

1105
00:44:14,569 --> 00:44:12,269
means nothing because you move into a

1106
00:44:17,029 --> 00:44:14,579
place that's completely different now

1107
00:44:18,649 --> 00:44:17,039
the second point because in finishing

1108
00:44:20,419 --> 00:44:18,659
one and you probably know I wrote a book

1109
00:44:22,589 --> 00:44:20,429
called the labyrinth of time many years

1110
00:44:25,140 --> 00:44:22,599
ago and the reason I boat

1111
00:44:27,329 --> 00:44:25,150
of time was what's saying to Augustine I

1112
00:44:29,069 --> 00:44:27,339
wanted to know what time was and exactly

1113
00:44:30,739 --> 00:44:29,079
like send pristine after actually

1114
00:44:33,509 --> 00:44:30,749
writing a 380

1115
00:44:34,799 --> 00:44:33,519
hundred eighty page book I cut the end

1116
00:44:37,200 --> 00:44:34,809
of it and I still didn't really know

1117
00:44:38,819 --> 00:44:37,210
what time was I knew what time measured

1118
00:44:41,370 --> 00:44:38,829
but even I didn't then I did know what

1119
00:44:43,019 --> 00:44:41,380
time actually measures at the point of

1120
00:44:45,450 --> 00:44:43,029
death something thirties comes with time

1121
00:44:48,509 --> 00:44:45,460
as well you know time is a subjective

1122
00:44:50,039 --> 00:44:48,519
experience we know that some of the

1123
00:44:51,779 --> 00:44:50,049
near-death experience is the moody

1124
00:44:55,019 --> 00:44:51,789
traits that they discussed and under

1125
00:44:57,059 --> 00:44:55,029
Grayson traits experience terms one of

1126
00:45:00,479 --> 00:44:57,069
the things is this incredible slowly and

1127
00:45:03,059 --> 00:45:00,489
time as if time ceases to be the way we

1128
00:45:07,410 --> 00:45:03,069
understand time to be so suddenly you

1129
00:45:09,630 --> 00:45:07,420
move out of normal linear time into what

1130
00:45:11,729 --> 00:45:09,640
Phil okay dick called orthogonal time is

1131
00:45:14,989 --> 00:45:11,739
kind of a what's a right angles to this

1132
00:45:19,650 --> 00:45:14,999
time but is just as big and as powerful

1133
00:45:23,460 --> 00:45:19,660
so in which case you you your body dies

1134
00:45:25,410 --> 00:45:23,470
each time if you don't die in time build

1135
00:45:29,190 --> 00:45:25,420
a fresh he died because he ran out of

1136
00:45:30,660 --> 00:45:29,200
time literally you do you go somewhere

1137
00:45:32,130 --> 00:45:30,670
else completely different and your

1138
00:45:33,749 --> 00:45:32,140
consciousness moves in a totally

1139
00:45:35,039 --> 00:45:33,759
different way because people talk about

1140
00:45:37,890 --> 00:45:35,049
in need of expenses don't you know that

1141
00:45:39,779 --> 00:45:37,900
timelessness feeling the real thing you

1142
00:45:41,130 --> 00:45:39,789
can go back on your life and you can

1143
00:45:43,109 --> 00:45:41,140
review your life you can have a

1144
00:45:45,120 --> 00:45:43,119
panoramic life review and dodgy and

1145
00:45:48,120 --> 00:45:45,130
anywhere anywhere else and me this

1146
00:45:50,609 --> 00:45:48,130
reminds me analogous Lee of if you're

1147
00:45:52,529 --> 00:45:50,619
looking at a cd-rom which contains a

1148
00:45:54,900 --> 00:45:52,539
computer game refer a third-person

1149
00:45:57,630 --> 00:45:54,910
computer game where you know its whole

1150
00:46:00,059 --> 00:45:57,640
storyline or even better an old vinyl

1151
00:46:01,769 --> 00:46:00,069
record you look at grooves in a vinyl

1152
00:46:04,440 --> 00:46:01,779
record and if you're actually in the

1153
00:46:05,849 --> 00:46:04,450
groove you follow the groove but looking

1154
00:46:07,979 --> 00:46:05,859
down at the record you can see the whole

1155
00:46:10,529 --> 00:46:07,989
thing you know you're looking down as if

1156
00:46:12,479 --> 00:46:10,539
you're in ancient of space-time looking

1157
00:46:16,019 --> 00:46:12,489
down and you can see everything is a

1158
00:46:17,969 --> 00:46:16,029
single continuum it will bring back to

1159
00:46:19,979 --> 00:46:17,979
this mid to that example but what you do

1160
00:46:23,519 --> 00:46:19,989
in the book grabs us even more and that

1161
00:46:25,829 --> 00:46:23,529
you point out from the shamanistic and

1162
00:46:28,549 --> 00:46:25,839
the broadest sense of all different

1163
00:46:31,380 --> 00:46:28,559
wisdom traditions are all talking about

1164
00:46:33,680 --> 00:46:31,390
being outside of space-time and there's

1165
00:46:35,359 --> 00:46:33,690
a lot of common characteristics and

1166
00:46:36,589 --> 00:46:35,369
et which we're going to talk about in a

1167
00:46:39,770 --> 00:46:36,599
minute I'll hopefully and dive into

1168
00:46:42,859 --> 00:46:39,780
deeply also seems to be outside of

1169
00:46:46,279 --> 00:46:42,869
space-time so I mean take the DVD thing

1170
00:46:48,410 --> 00:46:46,289
or you know that's fine but I like what

1171
00:46:50,630 --> 00:46:48,420
you're saying before about the ayahuasca

1172
00:46:52,910 --> 00:46:50,640
when the shaman goes to the forest and

1173
00:46:54,950 --> 00:46:52,920
says look you're back there in

1174
00:46:58,430 --> 00:46:54,960
space-time now here's how you can

1175
00:47:00,230 --> 00:46:58,440
manipulate that a little bit and kind of

1176
00:47:01,730 --> 00:47:00,240
get a little bit into my world and then

1177
00:47:02,990 --> 00:47:01,740
when you duck into that other world like

1178
00:47:06,349 --> 00:47:03,000
the other story you told about the

1179
00:47:09,260 --> 00:47:06,359
research being done in the UK it does

1180
00:47:12,740 --> 00:47:09,270
seem to be out of that and then we come

1181
00:47:16,789 --> 00:47:12,750
back in it so that leads to a bunch of

1182
00:47:18,890 --> 00:47:16,799
questions about who we are inside of

1183
00:47:21,710 --> 00:47:18,900
this consciousness whether we are

1184
00:47:24,650 --> 00:47:21,720
special whether this moment matters and

1185
00:47:27,230 --> 00:47:24,660
the working hypothesis I've been having

1186
00:47:30,490 --> 00:47:27,240
is that there's a lot of room at the top

1187
00:47:33,260 --> 00:47:30,500
you know Richard Fineman the inventor of

1188
00:47:34,250 --> 00:47:33,270
nanotechnology made famous the quote

1189
00:47:36,620 --> 00:47:34,260
that there's a lot of room at the bottom

1190
00:47:39,140 --> 00:47:36,630
well I think when it comes to

1191
00:47:40,609 --> 00:47:39,150
consciousness there's a lot of room at

1192
00:47:44,720 --> 00:47:40,619
the top and I think we have a tendency

1193
00:47:46,730 --> 00:47:44,730
to put ourselves up on the heap maybe up

1194
00:47:49,279 --> 00:47:46,740
on the ladder a little bit higher than

1195
00:47:53,000 --> 00:47:49,289
we need to be and there might be so many

1196
00:47:54,799 --> 00:47:53,010
levels above us that we will take a long

1197
00:47:55,940 --> 00:47:54,809
time to begin to explore what what do

1198
00:47:58,190 --> 00:47:55,950
you think about any one of those ideas

1199
00:48:02,839 --> 00:47:58,200
I'm totally with you on that I think

1200
00:48:06,200 --> 00:48:02,849
that we we interface with intelligences

1201
00:48:08,049 --> 00:48:06,210
that are far greater than we are and you

1202
00:48:10,789 --> 00:48:08,059
know it's like the dunning-kruger effect

1203
00:48:12,769 --> 00:48:10,799
you don't know the level of your own

1204
00:48:14,720 --> 00:48:12,779
ignorance because you don't you can't

1205
00:48:18,710 --> 00:48:14,730
you can't know what you don't know and

1206
00:48:20,809 --> 00:48:18,720
we we dist use this term around into

1207
00:48:23,599 --> 00:48:20,819
people in politics and people in the in

1208
00:48:26,569 --> 00:48:23,609
various ways but even well-educated

1209
00:48:29,029 --> 00:48:26,579
people also do not know the level of

1210
00:48:30,620 --> 00:48:29,039
their own ignorance and humanity doesn't

1211
00:48:32,630 --> 00:48:30,630
know the level of its own ignorance so

1212
00:48:34,970 --> 00:48:32,640
what we're doing a lot of time with our

1213
00:48:37,190 --> 00:48:34,980
science is we're almost like a cast

1214
00:48:40,819 --> 00:48:37,200
Italians were building these beef

1215
00:48:44,089 --> 00:48:40,829
Robinson models to explain observed

1216
00:48:46,370 --> 00:48:44,099
phenomenon the that actually were making

1217
00:48:47,000 --> 00:48:46,380
epicycles you know in years gone by when

1218
00:48:49,250 --> 00:48:47,010
we had the

1219
00:48:50,930 --> 00:48:49,260
the idea that the universe was

1220
00:48:53,120 --> 00:48:50,940
geocentric and everything revolved

1221
00:48:54,950 --> 00:48:53,130
around the earth we couldn't explain the

1222
00:48:57,470 --> 00:48:54,960
the actual rhetoric motion of the outer

1223
00:48:59,930 --> 00:48:57,480
planet so we had all these epicycles as

1224
00:49:02,990 --> 00:48:59,940
well and that's got more and more surgit

1225
00:49:04,910 --> 00:49:03,000
so he brought Neil I mean some ways to

1226
00:49:06,440 --> 00:49:04,920
think this is what we're doing now we've

1227
00:49:08,390 --> 00:49:06,450
got things that we really don't

1228
00:49:10,190 --> 00:49:08,400
understand so we're trying to explain

1229
00:49:12,349 --> 00:49:10,200
them I mean one of my favorite ones of

1230
00:49:14,630 --> 00:49:12,359
this is and again I'm going to get

1231
00:49:16,940 --> 00:49:14,640
slightly technical here but in order to

1232
00:49:17,599 --> 00:49:16,950
explain how the universe is expanded the

1233
00:49:19,730 --> 00:49:17,609
way it is

1234
00:49:22,099 --> 00:49:19,740
they had to accommodate a period of

1235
00:49:23,660 --> 00:49:22,109
hyperinflation in the first few

1236
00:49:26,330 --> 00:49:23,670
billionths of a second of the Big Bang

1237
00:49:27,770 --> 00:49:26,340
to accommodate the observed world and of

1238
00:49:29,780 --> 00:49:27,780
course this is utterly ridiculous the

1239
00:49:32,030 --> 00:49:29,790
idea the universe expanded at thousands

1240
00:49:34,460 --> 00:49:32,040
of times the speed of light in order to

1241
00:49:36,740 --> 00:49:34,470
accommodate it but it's rather like how

1242
00:49:38,540 --> 00:49:36,750
they how the elephant got its trunk you

1243
00:49:41,270 --> 00:49:38,550
know it's it's actually backward ization

1244
00:49:42,680 --> 00:49:41,280
of ideas you know instead of actually

1245
00:49:44,990 --> 00:49:42,690
looking just at the facts and trying to

1246
00:49:48,080 --> 00:49:45,000
find solutions we shoehorn it more

1247
00:49:50,570 --> 00:49:48,090
amoral into the material reductionist

1248
00:49:52,940 --> 00:49:50,580
model and it's creeping and it's

1249
00:49:55,670 --> 00:49:52,950
creaking because they are so terrified

1250
00:49:57,680 --> 00:49:55,680
of the implications of quantum mechanics

1251
00:49:59,980 --> 00:49:57,690
and quantum physics and they they go on

1252
00:50:02,210 --> 00:49:59,990
and they say oh you're misunderstanding

1253
00:50:05,599 --> 00:50:02,220
what you mean by the twin slit

1254
00:50:08,450 --> 00:50:05,609
experiment you can't do the maths no but

1255
00:50:11,030 --> 00:50:08,460
we can do logic you know still logic

1256
00:50:12,950 --> 00:50:11,040
involved here and solve the things that

1257
00:50:14,599 --> 00:50:12,960
are totally completely illogical

1258
00:50:16,820 --> 00:50:14,609
you know these particles coming in and

1259
00:50:19,910 --> 00:50:16,830
out from nowhere in order to accommodate

1260
00:50:21,050 --> 00:50:19,920
the observe of the observed world so it

1261
00:50:24,980 --> 00:50:21,060
seems that the universe is far more

1262
00:50:26,510 --> 00:50:24,990
complex and far more fascinating I mean

1263
00:50:28,880 --> 00:50:26,520
come on our science has only been around

1264
00:50:31,070 --> 00:50:28,890
for about 350 years for crying out loud

1265
00:50:33,650 --> 00:50:31,080
how has that managed to be propped up

1266
00:50:35,750 --> 00:50:33,660
and why is it being propped up the way

1267
00:50:37,640 --> 00:50:35,760
that it is because it really fails on so

1268
00:50:40,430 --> 00:50:37,650
many levels like you're saying it not

1269
00:50:41,500 --> 00:50:40,440
only fails experimentally but it fair

1270
00:50:43,609 --> 00:50:41,510
fails

1271
00:50:45,020 --> 00:50:43,619
philosophically too it just doesn't make

1272
00:50:46,490 --> 00:50:45,030
any sense but I want to bring you back

1273
00:50:49,099 --> 00:50:46,500
to this because I haven't heard you talk

1274
00:50:51,500 --> 00:50:49,109
enough about this and it's really

1275
00:50:53,300 --> 00:50:51,510
something that I think you and I both

1276
00:50:55,190 --> 00:50:53,310
think is central and I have heard you

1277
00:50:56,510 --> 00:50:55,200
talk about it in bits and pieces but I

1278
00:50:58,280 --> 00:50:56,520
want to give you a chunk of time to

1279
00:51:00,560 --> 00:50:58,290
really address the whole thing and that

1280
00:51:03,560 --> 00:51:00,570
is the life review

1281
00:51:05,990 --> 00:51:03,570
of the near-death experience is

1282
00:51:08,120 --> 00:51:06,000
something that I don't want to hang my

1283
00:51:10,670 --> 00:51:08,130
hat on it and say that's absolutely the

1284
00:51:13,340 --> 00:51:10,680
way that it is but it consistently comes

1285
00:51:15,650 --> 00:51:13,350
up over and over again as we look at

1286
00:51:17,870 --> 00:51:15,660
these accounts in whole and it clearly

1287
00:51:19,820 --> 00:51:17,880
suggests a hierarchy of consciousness

1288
00:51:22,850 --> 00:51:19,830
when I say higher give consciousness

1289
00:51:24,830 --> 00:51:22,860
that is kind of a God kind of thing for

1290
00:51:27,110 --> 00:51:24,840
lack of a better term and it suggests

1291
00:51:28,550 --> 00:51:27,120
this moral imperative you know we're

1292
00:51:31,610 --> 00:51:28,560
going to talk in a minute maybe about

1293
00:51:33,710 --> 00:51:31,620
the whole magic and occult thing and do

1294
00:51:36,770 --> 00:51:33,720
what thou wilt and with the near-death

1295
00:51:40,400 --> 00:51:36,780
experience science my read of it is is

1296
00:51:44,450 --> 00:51:40,410
that do what thou wilt is not a very

1297
00:51:48,290 --> 00:51:44,460
good strategy to hang your hat on and a

1298
00:51:50,930 --> 00:51:48,300
better strategy is don't be too consumed

1299
00:51:53,870 --> 00:51:50,940
with this world and what you can get out

1300
00:51:56,450 --> 00:51:53,880
of it but love everyone tell the truth

1301
00:51:57,890 --> 00:51:56,460
help your neighbor and do the right

1302
00:52:00,080 --> 00:51:57,900
thing because you know what the right

1303
00:52:02,630 --> 00:52:00,090
thing to do is and that might sound

1304
00:52:04,730 --> 00:52:02,640
really churchy and I'm not a Christian

1305
00:52:07,100 --> 00:52:04,740
I'm not a religious person I always have

1306
00:52:10,520 --> 00:52:07,110
to say that because it sounds so churchy

1307
00:52:12,530 --> 00:52:10,530
but that seems to be my read of the

1308
00:52:14,750 --> 00:52:12,540
near-death experience data what do you

1309
00:52:18,980 --> 00:52:14,760
think about that no I'm with you on this

1310
00:52:21,230 --> 00:52:18,990
the idea that there is there is a moral

1311
00:52:22,700 --> 00:52:21,240
imperative somewhere you know when I was

1312
00:52:23,930 --> 00:52:22,710
brought up you know I was brought into

1313
00:52:25,670 --> 00:52:23,940
the Christian family and everything else

1314
00:52:28,670 --> 00:52:25,680
I used to argue with my mother all the

1315
00:52:32,720 --> 00:52:28,680
time about The Lodger the lot the idea

1316
00:52:33,920 --> 00:52:32,730
of of God in the judeo-christian idea of

1317
00:52:35,390 --> 00:52:33,930
this guy with a long beard and

1318
00:52:38,420 --> 00:52:35,400
everything else as well it made no sense

1319
00:52:40,070 --> 00:52:38,430
to me and the Bible and the way in which

1320
00:52:43,700 --> 00:52:40,080
the Bible makes no logical sense and

1321
00:52:46,160 --> 00:52:43,710
there is but as I got older I started to

1322
00:52:48,260 --> 00:52:46,170
realize but it's more complex than that

1323
00:52:54,230 --> 00:52:48,270
a formal complex

1324
00:52:57,890 --> 00:52:54,240
it's about morality and to do good and

1325
00:53:00,410 --> 00:52:57,900
in this I'm always I always cite the

1326
00:53:02,180 --> 00:53:00,420
movie Groundhog Day and in Groundhog Day

1327
00:53:03,650 --> 00:53:02,190
there's a profound message in there by

1328
00:53:05,630 --> 00:53:03,660
the way this I've interviewed my own

1329
00:53:07,940 --> 00:53:05,640
podcast I've interviewed Danny Rubin who

1330
00:53:09,740 --> 00:53:07,950
wrote it and Danny always says that the

1331
00:53:11,210 --> 00:53:09,750
philosophy though he's discovered the

1332
00:53:13,400 --> 00:53:11,220
philosophy himself but that wasn't his

1333
00:53:14,450 --> 00:53:13,410
intention in the first place but

1334
00:53:15,620 --> 00:53:14,460
nevertheless it has some very

1335
00:53:17,390 --> 00:53:15,630
interesting ideas because you know

1336
00:53:19,610 --> 00:53:17,400
Connors he lives the same day over and

1337
00:53:22,130 --> 00:53:19,620
over again and every day he has more

1338
00:53:24,590 --> 00:53:22,140
knowledge about his environment whereas

1339
00:53:26,210 --> 00:53:24,600
everybody else doesn't and he uses that

1340
00:53:28,640 --> 00:53:26,220
initially to his advantage to bed the

1341
00:53:30,200 --> 00:53:28,650
girl and to do all these things but then

1342
00:53:32,030 --> 00:53:30,210
he goes in it's almost like Maslow's

1343
00:53:36,080 --> 00:53:32,040
hierarchy of needs he fulfills his

1344
00:53:38,240 --> 00:53:36,090
sexual desires then he needs to educate

1345
00:53:40,720 --> 00:53:38,250
himself so he teaches himself foreign

1346
00:53:43,130 --> 00:53:40,730
languages how to play the piano and he's

1347
00:53:46,130 --> 00:53:43,140
developing as a human being he's moving

1348
00:53:48,620 --> 00:53:46,140
away from that kind of basic I just want

1349
00:53:51,080 --> 00:53:48,630
one want and all I can animo ving and he

1350
00:53:53,390 --> 00:53:51,090
starts to educate himself and then he

1351
00:53:57,260 --> 00:53:53,400
starts to realize that he can actually

1352
00:53:59,000 --> 00:53:57,270
do good for doing good sake he can run

1353
00:54:00,410 --> 00:53:59,010
round the town he can be under the tree

1354
00:54:03,290 --> 00:54:00,420
when the little kid falls out of the

1355
00:54:05,240 --> 00:54:03,300
tree and suddenly he is as if he's

1356
00:54:07,220 --> 00:54:05,250
developing as a human being over many

1357
00:54:10,490 --> 00:54:07,230
lives is developing more as a human

1358
00:54:12,650 --> 00:54:10,500
being he's developing he's playing again

1359
00:54:14,180 --> 00:54:12,660
the game as it were like a computer game

1360
00:54:16,130 --> 00:54:14,190
and he's playing it time and time again

1361
00:54:17,840 --> 00:54:16,140
and he's getting it better and he's

1362
00:54:19,490 --> 00:54:17,850
getting it better and you know in my

1363
00:54:21,590 --> 00:54:19,500
concept of the cheating the ferryman I

1364
00:54:23,690 --> 00:54:21,600
argue that this may be what life is that

1365
00:54:25,910 --> 00:54:23,700
you know that before we die in the split

1366
00:54:28,490 --> 00:54:25,920
seconds before we die we run all the

1367
00:54:30,800 --> 00:54:28,500
potential lives we could ever run in the

1368
00:54:32,390 --> 00:54:30,810
same way as Groundhog Day and in which

1369
00:54:34,700 --> 00:54:32,400
case but then the question has to be

1370
00:54:38,300 --> 00:54:34,710
asked and it has to be asked and they

1371
00:54:41,300 --> 00:54:38,310
cannot be avoided who decides in the

1372
00:54:44,030 --> 00:54:41,310
movie that connor's is allowed to move

1373
00:54:47,150 --> 00:54:44,040
on to the next day it suggests that

1374
00:54:49,610 --> 00:54:47,160
there is an intelligence outside of the

1375
00:54:51,230 --> 00:54:49,620
simulation you know outside of the grit

1376
00:54:54,740 --> 00:54:51,240
of The Truman Show whatever we want to

1377
00:54:58,130 --> 00:54:54,750
call it that is somehow watching over

1378
00:55:00,890 --> 00:54:58,140
and and developing and judging in some

1379
00:55:04,400 --> 00:55:00,900
way not in a kind of a judgmental god of

1380
00:55:07,250 --> 00:55:04,410
the old testament way but judging almost

1381
00:55:09,320 --> 00:55:07,260
ourselves because we know that when we

1382
00:55:11,840 --> 00:55:09,330
do something good you get that kind of

1383
00:55:13,850 --> 00:55:11,850
feedback feeling that's indescribable

1384
00:55:16,070 --> 00:55:13,860
you know you stop and you give somebody

1385
00:55:17,570 --> 00:55:16,080
who's desperate some money and you

1386
00:55:19,160 --> 00:55:17,580
suddenly feel and it's not because

1387
00:55:21,380 --> 00:55:19,170
you're doing it selfishly you just have

1388
00:55:22,910 --> 00:55:21,390
this feeling and if we are all one

1389
00:55:25,580 --> 00:55:22,920
consciousness experiencing itself

1390
00:55:27,230 --> 00:55:25,590
subjectively if God is really what they

1391
00:55:29,510 --> 00:55:27,240
say in pantheism which is

1392
00:55:32,450 --> 00:55:29,520
the collective everything that we all

1393
00:55:34,010 --> 00:55:32,460
are and that we are all emanations of

1394
00:55:36,200 --> 00:55:34,020
God I'm going to be profoundly Gnostic

1395
00:55:38,359 --> 00:55:36,210
here that we are emanations of God

1396
00:55:42,020 --> 00:55:38,369
shards of the pleure OMA that are

1397
00:55:44,270 --> 00:55:42,030
located within the within the kinoma

1398
00:55:46,640 --> 00:55:44,280
within the simulation but we have

1399
00:55:48,770 --> 00:55:46,650
forgotten who we are and we don't know

1400
00:55:51,380 --> 00:55:48,780
who we are but we can't know who we are

1401
00:55:53,720 --> 00:55:51,390
because if we do we wouldn't follow the

1402
00:55:56,750 --> 00:55:53,730
route that we follow we have to learn by

1403
00:55:58,339 --> 00:55:56,760
our experiences and by our doing now one

1404
00:56:00,500 --> 00:55:58,349
of the things I'll be planning to do in

1405
00:56:01,970 --> 00:56:00,510
your your family's home country I'm a

1406
00:56:03,320 --> 00:56:01,980
greca file by the way I absolutely love

1407
00:56:05,480 --> 00:56:03,330
Greece this is why I asked you earlier

1408
00:56:06,770 --> 00:56:05,490
on about your background got married in

1409
00:56:09,079 --> 00:56:06,780
Greece and everything else and I go

1410
00:56:11,450 --> 00:56:09,089
twice he and I've been going once or

1411
00:56:14,180 --> 00:56:11,460
twice a year for the last 40 years 45

1412
00:56:16,190 --> 00:56:14,190
years I've got my book is about to come

1413
00:56:18,109 --> 00:56:16,200
out in Greek two of my books are coming

1414
00:56:19,700 --> 00:56:18,119
out in Greek this in a few weeks time

1415
00:56:21,710 --> 00:56:19,710
and what we're going to do is to try and

1416
00:56:24,410 --> 00:56:21,720
recreate Plato's cave and the myth of

1417
00:56:26,900 --> 00:56:24,420
plato's cave in Greece and I found there

1418
00:56:28,670 --> 00:56:26,910
get this Alex I found the location that

1419
00:56:31,310 --> 00:56:28,680
they think Plato's cave play zone-based

1420
00:56:33,859 --> 00:56:31,320
Plato's cave upon its just outside

1421
00:56:36,560 --> 00:56:33,869
Athens in a hill called liquor batis

1422
00:56:39,500 --> 00:56:36,570
finis they only pause for a second and

1423
00:56:42,109 --> 00:56:39,510
tell people the story of Plato's cave

1424
00:56:44,990 --> 00:56:42,119
because I think a lot of people know

1425
00:56:48,079 --> 00:56:45,000
that they should know but don't know the

1426
00:56:50,660 --> 00:56:48,089
story so tell them about Plato's cave ok

1427
00:56:51,680 --> 00:56:50,670
Plato's cave is the idea that there's a

1428
00:56:53,420 --> 00:56:51,690
group of prisoners

1429
00:56:55,400 --> 00:56:53,430
there's group of people rather similar

1430
00:56:57,130 --> 00:56:55,410
so the children I mentioned earlier on

1431
00:57:00,260 --> 00:56:57,140
with the tribe in northern Colombia and

1432
00:57:04,670 --> 00:57:00,270
they explain their whole life they just

1433
00:57:07,339 --> 00:57:04,680
existed in a cave and they're chained to

1434
00:57:09,050 --> 00:57:07,349
literature teachers or whatever and they

1435
00:57:11,930 --> 00:57:09,060
can only look at the back wall of the

1436
00:57:13,700 --> 00:57:11,940
cave they can't move their heads and all

1437
00:57:16,070 --> 00:57:13,710
they can see is a back wall now because

1438
00:57:18,290 --> 00:57:16,080
Isis allegory we're not saying it's not

1439
00:57:21,050 --> 00:57:18,300
real it's an allegory yes it's it's it's

1440
00:57:23,990 --> 00:57:21,060
Plato's way of showing how we how our

1441
00:57:25,880 --> 00:57:24,000
senses confirm us ok and what he says is

1442
00:57:27,560 --> 00:57:25,890
these people are chained and that are

1443
00:57:30,380 --> 00:57:27,570
looking towards the back of the cave now

1444
00:57:33,260 --> 00:57:30,390
behind them is a raised walkway like a

1445
00:57:35,660 --> 00:57:33,270
bridge and people walk along that

1446
00:57:38,450 --> 00:57:35,670
walkway with cardboard cutouts of shapes

1447
00:57:39,849 --> 00:57:38,460
of horses and trees and cows and people

1448
00:57:42,910 --> 00:57:39,859
and everything else

1449
00:57:45,849 --> 00:57:42,920
and then the other side of that is then

1450
00:57:47,559 --> 00:57:45,859
a source of light like a fire or

1451
00:57:49,930 --> 00:57:47,569
something so you can imagine what

1452
00:57:51,910 --> 00:57:49,940
happens is that the shadows of the

1453
00:57:53,859 --> 00:57:51,920
people going across the bridge are

1454
00:57:56,380 --> 00:57:53,869
actually reflected on the back wall of

1455
00:57:58,690 --> 00:57:56,390
the cave so the people that are the

1456
00:58:00,370 --> 00:57:58,700
prisoners see the shadows on the back

1457
00:58:02,710 --> 00:58:00,380
wall now because they've never

1458
00:58:04,450 --> 00:58:02,720
experienced anything else that's what

1459
00:58:06,789 --> 00:58:04,460
they believe reality is and in many ways

1460
00:58:09,549 --> 00:58:06,799
this is I think the trap of materialist

1461
00:58:12,339 --> 00:58:09,559
reductionism we tend to think that the

1462
00:58:14,140 --> 00:58:12,349
shadows on the cave are actual reality

1463
00:58:16,420 --> 00:58:14,150
now because that's all we can see that's

1464
00:58:20,079 --> 00:58:16,430
what most of all we know that's what our

1465
00:58:21,849 --> 00:58:20,089
senses tell us but we know from research

1466
00:58:24,220 --> 00:58:21,859
into how the brain functions we know

1467
00:58:26,140 --> 00:58:24,230
that the brain recreates in time in the

1468
00:58:27,819 --> 00:58:26,150
behind here at the back of the brain and

1469
00:58:29,950 --> 00:58:27,829
the darkest part of the brain the brain

1470
00:58:32,349 --> 00:58:29,960
recreates the visual experience the

1471
00:58:34,210 --> 00:58:32,359
visual experience is not one-to-one you

1472
00:58:36,220 --> 00:58:34,220
know to believe that is to be to come in

1473
00:58:37,960 --> 00:58:36,230
the trap called naive realism that's not

1474
00:58:40,329 --> 00:58:37,970
we know that that's not the case and I

1475
00:58:42,220 --> 00:58:40,339
call it electromagnetic chauvinism the

1476
00:58:44,890 --> 00:58:42,230
idea that we believe that what we see

1477
00:58:46,989 --> 00:58:44,900
the tiny bits of the electromagnetic

1478
00:58:49,239 --> 00:58:46,999
spectrum that we see is what what is

1479
00:58:54,370 --> 00:58:49,249
actually out then of course it isn't so

1480
00:58:56,529 --> 00:58:54,380
going back to the analogy what happens

1481
00:59:01,440 --> 00:58:56,539
is one of the prisoners manages to break

1482
00:59:04,390 --> 00:59:01,450
his chains and looks round and gets up

1483
00:59:06,609 --> 00:59:04,400
walks past the bridge walks past the

1484
00:59:09,519 --> 00:59:06,619
fire and walk to the entrance of the

1485
00:59:11,200 --> 00:59:09,529
cave and sees reality as it really is

1486
00:59:13,479 --> 00:59:11,210
sees what the gnostics will call the

1487
00:59:15,359 --> 00:59:13,489
plumber the reality behind the reality

1488
00:59:17,200 --> 00:59:15,369
what people do when they have

1489
00:59:19,029 --> 00:59:17,210
extraordinary experiences like

1490
00:59:20,410 --> 00:59:19,039
near-death experiences out of the body

1491
00:59:22,660 --> 00:59:20,420
experiences dimethyl treinen

1492
00:59:24,849 --> 00:59:22,670
dimethyltryptamine experiences but then

1493
00:59:26,759 --> 00:59:24,859
they come back he comes back to him the

1494
00:59:30,039 --> 00:59:26,769
fellow prisoners and he says hey guys

1495
00:59:31,779 --> 00:59:30,049
this is not it I've seen it when it's

1496
00:59:33,640 --> 00:59:31,789
really like and of course they turn

1497
00:59:34,720 --> 00:59:33,650
around some say you're insane you're

1498
00:59:36,849 --> 00:59:34,730
completely insane you've got it

1499
00:59:38,799 --> 00:59:36,859
completely wrong you're mad and of

1500
00:59:41,529 --> 00:59:38,809
course this is the human condition the

1501
00:59:42,819 --> 00:59:41,539
tragedy is we we say these are

1502
00:59:44,829 --> 00:59:42,829
hallucinations

1503
00:59:46,900 --> 00:59:44,839
another another label you know we don't

1504
00:59:47,979 --> 00:59:46,910
know what hallucinations are we don't

1505
00:59:50,650 --> 00:59:47,989
know why the brain creates

1506
00:59:52,180 --> 00:59:50,660
hallucinations or anything so you can't

1507
00:59:53,210 --> 00:59:52,190
say that somebody who has an

1508
00:59:55,099 --> 00:59:53,220
extraordinary

1509
00:59:56,839 --> 00:59:55,109
it's like an out-of-body experience or a

1510
00:59:59,300 --> 00:59:56,849
near-death experience that that's no

1511
01:00:01,880 --> 00:59:59,310
more real than this is because

1512
01:00:03,950 --> 01:00:01,890
technically they're all brain created in

1513
01:00:05,599 --> 01:00:03,960
one way or another but then we have the

1514
01:00:07,220 --> 01:00:05,609
problem brain created how does the brain

1515
01:00:09,620 --> 01:00:07,230
create anything because the brain is

1516
01:00:11,390 --> 01:00:09,630
still empty space and the brain is

1517
01:00:12,410 --> 01:00:11,400
inanimate and everything else as well so

1518
01:00:15,589 --> 01:00:12,420
then we have the ghost in the machine

1519
01:00:17,330 --> 01:00:15,599
then we have cartesian dualism we go

1520
01:00:19,370 --> 01:00:17,340
down Gilbert Ryle roots and we have all

1521
01:00:22,550 --> 01:00:19,380
these problems but if consciousness is

1522
01:00:25,820 --> 01:00:22,560
everything we don't have to ilysm real

1523
01:00:27,230 --> 01:00:25,830
briefly then the last topic I had and

1524
01:00:30,050 --> 01:00:27,240
we're not gonna have a time to cover it

1525
01:00:33,230 --> 01:00:30,060
thoroughly but the whole et thing is

1526
01:00:35,089 --> 01:00:33,240
extremely fascinating to me and I know

1527
01:00:37,849 --> 01:00:35,099
there's a lot of different ways to to

1528
01:00:40,370 --> 01:00:37,859
cut it and to look at that data on this

1529
01:00:44,930 --> 01:00:40,380
show we've looked at it across culture

1530
01:00:46,490 --> 01:00:44,940
across time and it seems to hold up dr.

1531
01:00:48,349 --> 01:00:46,500
RD six-color Clarke is somebody I

1532
01:00:50,000 --> 01:00:48,359
brought up on the screen and you know

1533
01:00:52,220 --> 01:00:50,010
Native Americans and star people

1534
01:00:55,880 --> 01:00:52,230
throughout time multiple species

1535
01:00:57,920 --> 01:00:55,890
multiple agendas also we have all sorts

1536
01:01:00,020 --> 01:00:57,930
of accounts of basically the ancient

1537
01:01:03,220 --> 01:01:00,030
alien theory which a lot of people don't

1538
01:01:06,230 --> 01:01:03,230
like but seems to hold up well we have

1539
01:01:08,690 --> 01:01:06,240
the involvement of our government in

1540
01:01:10,940 --> 01:01:08,700
these programs and I talked to Richard

1541
01:01:13,990 --> 01:01:10,950
Dolan at length about that that seems to

1542
01:01:15,890 --> 01:01:14,000
be I mean it's documented in papers and

1543
01:01:17,900 --> 01:01:15,900
thousands and thousands of released

1544
01:01:19,910 --> 01:01:17,910
documents I also had an interesting

1545
01:01:21,230 --> 01:01:19,920
interview with Diana Walsh rusalka which

1546
01:01:25,160 --> 01:01:21,240
we won't really have time to talk about

1547
01:01:29,690 --> 01:01:25,170
and Jacques Vallee so as we move to wrap

1548
01:01:32,750 --> 01:01:29,700
things up what do you think about ET and

1549
01:01:34,660 --> 01:01:32,760
what do you think is going on there do

1550
01:01:37,280 --> 01:01:34,670
you accept that there is a

1551
01:01:41,510 --> 01:01:37,290
nuts-and-bolts reality to it in addition

1552
01:01:44,270 --> 01:01:41,520
to a consciousness extended reality to

1553
01:01:47,660 --> 01:01:44,280
it that's that's the question either

1554
01:01:51,260 --> 01:01:47,670
I've been interested in UFOs ever since

1555
01:01:53,720 --> 01:01:51,270
I was 8 or 9 years of age and this is

1556
01:01:55,720 --> 01:01:53,730
the real thing that really puzzles me

1557
01:01:58,220 --> 01:01:55,730
like for instance my mother's experience

1558
01:01:59,780 --> 01:01:58,230
what she saw was obviously in a

1559
01:02:02,120 --> 01:01:59,790
hypnagogic state she was obviously in

1560
01:02:04,070 --> 01:02:02,130
this state of sleep paralysis but it had

1561
01:02:06,380 --> 01:02:04,080
been stimulated by something she saw in

1562
01:02:08,569 --> 01:02:06,390
the sky now on

1563
01:02:10,339 --> 01:02:08,579
of that it wasn't just you know she said

1564
01:02:12,559 --> 01:02:10,349
she saw this this disc in the sky of

1565
01:02:14,870 --> 01:02:12,569
smoke and it shot off toward Wales what

1566
01:02:16,970 --> 01:02:14,880
I didn't finish off deliberately in my

1567
01:02:19,009 --> 01:02:16,980
description there was I was subsequently

1568
01:02:21,609 --> 01:02:19,019
contacted by a mutual a friend of mine

1569
01:02:24,380 --> 01:02:21,619
and she had actually seen the object

1570
01:02:26,089 --> 01:02:24,390
about two miles away and she'd seen it

1571
01:02:27,980 --> 01:02:26,099
on exactly the same time my mother saw

1572
01:02:30,559 --> 01:02:27,990
it so this is something that was out

1573
01:02:32,750 --> 01:02:30,569
there in objective reality seen by

1574
01:02:34,579 --> 01:02:32,760
different people which seem to be

1575
01:02:36,890 --> 01:02:34,589
associated in some way there's something

1576
01:02:39,079 --> 01:02:36,900
that was psychological always using my

1577
01:02:41,359 --> 01:02:39,089
mother's brain to come through into this

1578
01:02:44,329 --> 01:02:41,369
reality so clearly we've got something

1579
01:02:46,549 --> 01:02:44,339
here and I really am fascinated by this

1580
01:02:47,960 --> 01:02:46,559
as you know I don't make up my mind

1581
01:02:50,120 --> 01:02:47,970
about things I just look at the evidence

1582
01:02:51,710 --> 01:02:50,130
and go where the evidence tells me you

1583
01:02:53,569 --> 01:02:51,720
know I don't have any preconceptions I'm

1584
01:02:55,160 --> 01:02:53,579
not trying to prove anything like you I

1585
01:02:57,440 --> 01:02:55,170
just want to know you know while I've

1586
01:02:59,359 --> 01:02:57,450
got the time here to understand but it

1587
01:03:02,359 --> 01:02:59,369
does seem that there is very much the

1588
01:03:03,940 --> 01:03:02,369
the kind of mythological elements of the

1589
01:03:06,650 --> 01:03:03,950
entities the way in which they seem to

1590
01:03:09,890 --> 01:03:06,660
follow us through history the way they

1591
01:03:11,749 --> 01:03:09,900
seem to culturally reflect our society

1592
01:03:13,700 --> 01:03:11,759
in one way or another as if they are

1593
01:03:15,799 --> 01:03:13,710
actually emanations in some way of

1594
01:03:18,710 --> 01:03:15,809
ourselves and this is why I use the term

1595
01:03:21,440 --> 01:03:18,720
a Gregorio I usually come a Gregorio

1596
01:03:23,900 --> 01:03:21,450
because it's like it's kind of a it's

1597
01:03:26,259 --> 01:03:23,910
created by the brain but it's things

1598
01:03:29,150 --> 01:03:26,269
that use the brain in order to put all

1599
01:03:33,049 --> 01:03:29,160
awareness to pull themselves through

1600
01:03:35,839 --> 01:03:33,059
from somewhere else and in some way they

1601
01:03:37,730 --> 01:03:35,849
they they need us and we need them they

1602
01:03:40,730 --> 01:03:37,740
seem to be sort of part of us in some

1603
01:03:42,740 --> 01:03:40,740
way how that works I really don't know

1604
01:03:44,930 --> 01:03:42,750
and I don't know whether we'll ever have

1605
01:03:46,880 --> 01:03:44,940
the mental capacity to fully understand

1606
01:03:48,620 --> 01:03:46,890
this game because it does seem like a

1607
01:03:49,759 --> 01:03:48,630
game you know as Terence Mckenna said

1608
01:03:51,559 --> 01:03:49,769
you know it's kind of like a joke

1609
01:03:53,630 --> 01:03:51,569
sometimes you know sometimes the

1610
01:03:55,180 --> 01:03:53,640
creatures seem to be extracting the

1611
01:03:58,370 --> 01:03:55,190
Michael they seem to be playing with us

1612
01:04:00,920 --> 01:03:58,380
playing with our expectations almost

1613
01:04:04,220 --> 01:04:00,930
making the people who had Close

1614
01:04:05,839 --> 01:04:04,230
Encounters look like fools when they

1615
01:04:08,029 --> 01:04:05,849
tell what happened and yet these people

1616
01:04:10,339 --> 01:04:08,039
why would they make up such a ridiculous

1617
01:04:12,710 --> 01:04:10,349
story except if the entities themselves

1618
01:04:15,380 --> 01:04:12,720
are having fun with us in some way I

1619
01:04:16,849 --> 01:04:15,390
genuinely don't know and that's what I'm

1620
01:04:18,430 --> 01:04:16,859
working with people were taking this

1621
01:04:20,620 --> 01:04:18,440
forward now this whole way Gregorio

1622
01:04:22,900 --> 01:04:20,630
cept were working with I'll be writing a

1623
01:04:24,819 --> 01:04:22,910
paper with an associate of mine over the

1624
01:04:26,980 --> 01:04:24,829
next few months on this very theme I

1625
01:04:28,410 --> 01:04:26,990
mean she's a top she's she's she's a

1626
01:04:30,730 --> 01:04:28,420
lucid dreamer an out-of-body experience

1627
01:04:32,260 --> 01:04:30,740
but she's also an anthropologist so

1628
01:04:33,609 --> 01:04:32,270
we're working on this and we'll work it

1629
01:04:35,410 --> 01:04:33,619
and I'm working with scientists and

1630
01:04:37,089 --> 01:04:35,420
everything else as well to try and take

1631
01:04:40,480 --> 01:04:37,099
this forward because we want answers

1632
01:04:43,210 --> 01:04:40,490
don't we we want to understand but maybe

1633
01:04:45,670 --> 01:04:43,220
we're not supposed to maybe we're not

1634
01:04:48,250 --> 01:04:45,680
supposed to folks again our guest has

1635
01:04:50,109 --> 01:04:48,260
been the quite amazing

1636
01:04:52,210 --> 01:04:50,119
Anthony peek his new book that you're

1637
01:04:55,359 --> 01:04:52,220
gonna want to check out is the hidden

1638
01:04:57,640 --> 01:04:55,369
universe Tony really quickly tell folks

1639
01:04:59,740 --> 01:04:57,650
what else is going on in your world you

1640
01:05:02,349 --> 01:04:59,750
mentioned some kind of a couple of

1641
01:05:04,240 --> 01:05:02,359
pretty amazing events you have yeah what

1642
01:05:05,980 --> 01:05:04,250
do we got those and what is and other

1643
01:05:07,630 --> 01:05:05,990
things okay we're playing for their

1644
01:05:09,370 --> 01:05:07,640
events in Greece later on this summer

1645
01:05:11,680 --> 01:05:09,380
when we're gonna be creatively creating

1646
01:05:14,079 --> 01:05:11,690
Plato's cave I'm also at the moment it

1647
01:05:15,430 --> 01:05:14,089
hasn't been postponed yet or cancelled

1648
01:05:16,930 --> 01:05:15,440
but I'll be speaking at this year's

1649
01:05:20,980 --> 01:05:16,940
contact in the deserts of the last

1650
01:05:23,260 --> 01:05:20,990
weekend of May in Indian Indian sprit

1651
01:05:25,240 --> 01:05:23,270
and Indian Wells Indian Wells is no I

1652
01:05:26,920 --> 01:05:25,250
said Indian Springs earlier on somewhere

1653
01:05:28,690 --> 01:05:26,930
else and that will be taking place if

1654
01:05:30,849 --> 01:05:28,700
it's still happening but I'm gonna be

1655
01:05:33,370 --> 01:05:30,859
the I'll be doing a lecture and I'll be

1656
01:05:35,680 --> 01:05:33,380
doing workshop and I'll be doing some

1657
01:05:36,910 --> 01:05:35,690
work and a panel discussion with people

1658
01:05:39,480 --> 01:05:36,920
like Whitley story from various other

1659
01:05:43,390 --> 01:05:39,490
people if anybody wants to contact me my

1660
01:05:44,800 --> 01:05:43,400
website is Anthony Pete calm if you are

1661
01:05:46,809 --> 01:05:44,810
interested in linking up and discussing

1662
01:05:49,780 --> 01:05:46,819
things with me I'm very active on

1663
01:05:52,569 --> 01:05:49,790
Instagram under cheating the ferryman 54

1664
01:05:54,430 --> 01:05:52,579
I'm also very active on Facebook and I

1665
01:05:56,140 --> 01:05:54,440
will normally respond we have a large

1666
01:05:57,640 --> 01:05:56,150
international community on both those

1667
01:06:00,160 --> 01:05:57,650
sites that discuss and debate these

1668
01:06:01,599 --> 01:06:00,170
ideas and what else can I tell you my

1669
01:06:03,760 --> 01:06:01,609
books you can get my books everywhere

1670
01:06:05,380 --> 01:06:03,770
the books are in most formats in fact

1671
01:06:07,720 --> 01:06:05,390
I'm now working my way through the books

1672
01:06:10,000 --> 01:06:07,730
in terms of audible as well my first

1673
01:06:13,089 --> 01:06:10,010
book and my book the damon is out will

1674
01:06:14,800 --> 01:06:13,099
be out inaudible and the book on time is

1675
01:06:16,450 --> 01:06:14,810
out inaudible and this book will be out

1676
01:06:19,300 --> 01:06:16,460
inaudible with discuss you recording

1677
01:06:21,280 --> 01:06:19,310
button are you recording the voice

1678
01:06:24,370 --> 01:06:21,290
oh yeah I had I hope to audition for

1679
01:06:26,950 --> 01:06:24,380
them as well I audition but yes I passed

1680
01:06:27,569 --> 01:06:26,960
the audition so I'm both the talent that

1681
01:06:31,049 --> 01:06:27,579
reads

1682
01:06:34,199 --> 01:06:31,059
and the author as well it adds so much

1683
01:06:37,289 --> 01:06:34,209
to audio offerings because there's no

1684
01:06:39,059 --> 01:06:37,299
substitute for that for the author you

1685
01:06:43,109 --> 01:06:39,069
do have you done your audible your book

1686
01:06:44,849 --> 01:06:43,119
inaudible no no okay because you know

1687
01:06:46,229 --> 01:06:44,859
your work is always fascinated me anyway

1688
01:06:48,900 --> 01:06:46,239
you know I think you are one of the most

1689
01:06:51,180 --> 01:06:48,910
important people in this field because

1690
01:06:53,009 --> 01:06:51,190
of the approach you take and I think you

1691
01:06:54,779 --> 01:06:53,019
are a breath of fresh herb because of

1692
01:06:56,009 --> 01:06:54,789
that and you are very important within

1693
01:06:57,900 --> 01:06:56,019
this and that's why the whole

1694
01:07:01,799 --> 01:06:57,910
credibility is so high and I think it's

1695
01:07:04,259 --> 01:07:01,809
it's well well it's the way it should be

1696
01:07:06,390 --> 01:07:04,269
so well that's very much some excellent

1697
01:07:08,190 --> 01:07:06,400
questions as well well that's super nice

1698
01:07:10,680 --> 01:07:08,200
of you to say it's been an absolute

1699
01:07:12,449 --> 01:07:10,690
delight day we'll have to do it again

1700
01:07:14,819 --> 01:07:12,459
much sooner because there's so many

1701
01:07:16,079 --> 01:07:14,829
things we still have that we didn't get

1702
01:07:18,630 --> 01:07:16,089
a chance to talk about but you've

1703
01:07:21,299 --> 01:07:18,640
already ended your time limit and my

1704
01:07:23,880 --> 01:07:21,309
apologies to your wife and I respect the

1705
01:07:26,910 --> 01:07:23,890
fact that you realize that you have

1706
01:07:29,069 --> 01:07:26,920
family issues that also matter I totally

1707
01:07:32,969 --> 01:07:29,079
get that and respect that so my

1708
01:07:34,799 --> 01:07:32,979
apologies and or my gratitude to her for